Chemical Anchors: choosing one isn't easy.

[ToughButterCup]

Or perhaps I should have written: Choosing the correct one isn't easy

 

I need to embed threaded bar in non-cracked concrete. That's why SEs and others say 'You need a chemical anchor'. 

Have you looked at the range of them on offer? Which does what for whom under what circumstances isn't made clear at all.

 

So it's off on yet another electromagnetic adventure:  and apart from suppliers websites (which I automatically distrust) there's precious little to engage an interested but skeptical  customer. True enough, I did find this . But the authorship of the site isn't made clear and there's a lengthy disclaimer. (at the bottom of the page). I trust that just about as much as I trust Donald.

 

Screwy's , TS, and local  BM sites and others aren't interested in anything other than sales.  Fischer do a   technical support site (just a phone number), but they only focus on .... you guessed it.

 

• Why does styrene matter (as in styrene-free) ?
• Is generic stuff just as good as branded ?
• Who or what is Vinylester?  (yes it's is a resin produced by the esterification of an epoxy resin with an unsaturated monocarboxylic acid. but what the Hell is that?
• What's the difference between high performance and  normal stuff?
• Why is there such a price range? Cheap = bad, expensive = good ? What's good enough (for my job)?

 

Does anyone know of a site which simplifies this mess of advertising claims erm, (sorry) , information ? 

[Jeremy Harris]

FWIW I've always used the epoxy ones.  They are a bit more expensive but are tolerant of a bit of damp in the hole and are generally fool proof.  My old garage has a range of them in the floor that I used to use for tie down points for load testing aircraft components, and although I was using them in a very poor way (applying tensile loads rather than shear as most are intended to take) I never ever had one fail.

 

Depends what you want to use them for, but if they are always going into dry concrete the cheapest polyester/vinylester ones are fine.  If there's a chance that the hole may be a bit damp then the epoxy ones are a bit better.

 

TBH, for general building work, where they are going to be taking shear loads usually pretty much any of them will do the job, so I'd be inclined to choose on price and local availability.

 

 

[PeterW]

What load are you applying to it ..?

 

Stud size ..?? 

 

Best tech support for this is Hilti who operate a technical line. 

[MikeSharp01]

29 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

Best tech support for this is Hilti who operate a technical line. 

Yes just tell them what you are trying to do and they will give you their options. Did your SE not specify a brand / systen ours has given us the manufacturer but also 'or equivalent' is in there. So I could just ask my local BM for the equivalent and they should, should, do the work for you. 

[Onoff]

Tbh out of all I've used I used to find the Rawlplug catalogue easiest to navigate. Helpline was good too.

 

Nowadays I use Fischer but that's only on the back of work and I can score the odd slightly out of date tube as we daren't use it for our man riding applications. 

 

I helped somebody  a while bavk and they were using DeWalt stuff. Nowhere near as good as Fischer imo.

[PeterW]

So for everyday use I have Fischer and it’s brilliant - fits in an ordinary sealant gun too. With the chemset mortars or epoxy tube mixed products then it’s good to get a second nozzle and remove the first once you’ve done whatever job you want it for, or plan to use a whole tube in one go. It sets in the nozzle otherwise. 

 

For anything that is critical I use Hilti and scrounge the proper gun off my mate and it does the job properly and I know it’s right - but like @Onoff this is more about safety critical things rather than just load critical or where there are a number of redundant fixings.  

[ToughButterCup]

To date, I've only used Fischer. And I learned the nozzle game the hard way (geddit?)  : planning to use a whole tube at once is a bit of a dark art isn't it?

I'll look at the Hilti stuff and maybe try some, but I bet I end up taking @JSHarris advice. Our concrete is all bone dry.

 

I know, it's just me: I like to know why I'm doing what I'm doing, and why I'm not doing what I might reasonably be expected to be doing.

And that's not a recipe for an easy life.

 

[Onoff]

We use this at work for man riding applications, Fischer FIS V 360 S:

 

 

The piggy back cartridge is imo superior to the standard mastic gun type.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Onoff

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

We use this at work for man riding applications,[...]

 

Man riding ?

Auto-correct has a sense of humour ?

[ProDave]

Our build used epoxy chemical anchors to bolt the sole plate down. About 10% of them did not set and had to be re done.

[bassanclan]

+1 to the Fischer FIS V 360.

Ithe is my preferred chem anchor and agree the 2 part is better.

Just check when you are buying if it is W for winter - which is fine if you are using it now, but not ideal if you are keeping it to use for a few months.

If you are buying from a builder's merchant ask for a couple of spare nozzles, they should give you them free for regular customers, otherwise they are cheap enough from Toolstation etc

[Onoff]

43 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

Man riding ?

Auto-correct has a sense of humour ?

 

Safety harness points, abseil points, safety wire systems.....

[Onoff]

17 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Our build used epoxy chemical anchors to bolt the sole plate down. About 10% of them did not set and had to be re done.

 

We're they tested or just failed when you tried to nut them up?

 

We use a rig like this:

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

13 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Our build used epoxy chemical anchors to bolt the sole plate down. About 10% of them did not set and had to be re done.

 

Our sole plate was held down with some clever hammer fixings.  Neither I nor my building inspector had seen them before, but we were both impressed  with them.  Very quick to use, just drill a hole through the sole plate into the concrete ring beam, then hammer in the expanding fastener.  IIRC, they looked like a bigger version of Timco Expressnails.

[PeterW]

Back to the original question though @recoveringacademic, what’s the purpose of this..?

 

If it is for a wall plate then pretty much any of the standard Fischer ones are good enough, and for that sort of thing I love the glass capsule ones as you fix one at each end to hold the plate back and let it go off then drill at suitable intervals with a wood spur bit, follow with an SDS marked to the right depth,  clean the hole and shove the glass vial in. 5 seconds with the setting tool in an impact hammer and the stud is fixed. Go for a cuppa, come back and nip them up and job done. 

[Onoff]

Must have been the late 80's when a mate decided to convert the double height, double length "garage" attached to his end terrace and put bedrooms above. It was an old shop c/w wooden doors in the gable ends and iron davits with pulley wheels.  (I think he just had the windows made to suit to door holes). Anyway the original mezzanine floor had long since rotted so he had a local guy drew up some plans for PP/BR. The spec was continuous angle iron down each side supporting floor joists spanning across. The angle iron was duly aquired from our fabricator on the back of a job. Ditto the glass resin capsules but he rapidly ran out. Neither of us realised the capsules were just falling into the cavity! Off he went to the local motor factor and bought the biggest tub of Isopon ever. Newspaper was duly screwed up and shoved into the holes followed by a good slug of body filler and the studs. BCO was happy and it's still there! 

[ToughButterCup]

10 hours ago, PeterW said:

Back to the original question though @recoveringacademic, what’s the purpose of this..?

[...]

 

Knowing which one to use and why, and much more important, why not to use the others.  I'm thinking about (say) a BCO asking me which chemical anchor  I have used - and being able to respond to the challenge 'Why didn't you use [xyz]?' And trying hard to avoid the @ProDave scenario outlined above.

I've got a few chemical anchor jobs

• Wall plate for the main roof - (likely the glass capsule idea you outline above)
• Threaded bar for the edge protection fittings (M12) - might well drill right through the concrete, bolt and plate both sides instead. (Foolproof)
• Threaded bar for the rim joists (M14 / M16) 

In terms of making holes in concrete and using chemical anchors , I remembered @Onoff's advice to clean out the holes properly. So I bought a compressor  and  blasted the holes out thoroughly.

 

Or so I thought.

 

Debbie, bless her, suggested I clean the hole out with an old toothbrush as well. Cue embarrassment. Loads of secret crud came out. Further blasting, more crud still.  

 

@Onoff, thanks for the nudge about the pull tester. If I can hire one, great. If not I'll just drill right through the wall and put a large washer under a nut and lock nut. Overall, that'd be cheaper.  Thanks very much (as always)

 

 

[Onoff]

I still don't rate a STANDARD compressor blow gun attachment  or a vacuum for cleaning out resin holes. Generally not long enough. A compressor forces debris inward where it lodges, forced into tiny cavities. Likewise a vac just sucks out dust but again some lodges in cavities in the side. A proper puffer is THE tool. It sucks and blows agitating the debris and clearing the hole without having enough force to lodge bits.

 

Try it. Drill your hole and blow out with the compressor. Then use the puffer. I g'tee you'll be shocked at how much more dust comes out.

 

https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Screws+%26+Fixings/d90/Chemical+Fixings/sd1960/Fischer+ABK+Hole+Cleaning+Blow+Pump/p45501

 

Fisher do though do a blow gun attachment that goes on a compressor but it has a special tip that directs the air I think against the walls of the hole rather than straight in.

 

I have, when desperate at home, duct taped a resin nozzle to the vac hose (take the plastic mixing screw out of the nozzle). That at least gives you reach to the bottom of the hole.

 

Handy to have the data sheets with the shear and pull out forces for the stud size to hand if anyone asks.

 

 

[PeterW]

I use a bottle brush - quick and simple and works well..!

[Onoff]

M14 isn't particularly standard. You won't be getting nuts and washers for that down Screwfix.

[ToughButterCup]

6 minutes ago, Onoff said:

I still don't rate a STANDARD compressor blow gun attachment

[...]

Handy to have the data sheets with the shear and pull out forces for the stud size to hand if anyone asks.

 

I bought a puffer  as you advised some time ago. But this time, I thought I'd be a smart-arse and get a compressor (my mate was selling his) and  so it was 'any-excuse-to-use-it' time.

 

From now on it's

• Drill
• Compressor blow
• Brush out
• Compressor blow
• Brush out
• Puffer

In fact, just like it says on the tin. In pretty pictures for idiots like me who don't read.  I think I'll adapt a resin nozzle for fitting on the end of the compressor gun so that the jets blow sideways too.

 

Lesson learned. You could get a part time job as a teacher @Onoff. 

 

[Onoff]

3 hours ago, recoveringacademic said:

Lesson learned. You could get a part time job as a teacher @Onoff. 

 

 

Those who can't, teach?

Edited March 16, 2018 by Onoff
Comma added... !:)

[PeterW]

Don’t forget if you are using a compressor with dust then safety specs are a must ... concrete dust in the eye hurts, high speed dust causes damage !!