New self build design, heat and architect

[Nickfromwales]

7 hours ago, LnP said:

The drawings are impressive, but how well do they match the reality of the installation? Were you able to follow the routes shown in the drawings?

The key word is “reality”. 
 

These drawings are single discipline, unless you have provided a ‘line out’ of your other large bore services such as soil and waste pipework etc, so that is always the crux.

 

Current project, CVC supporting and myself installing (and adapting the design to suit) on the fly:

 

 

 

I changed a few bits around, and did my own thing with the manifolds to make it more sympathetic. 
 

Actual install when it was WIP:

 

 

 

As you can see, I abandoned the square box manifolds as I had other services in some of the posi joist voids which took up too much space; these needed to take priority so needs must.

 

It gets very busy very quickly, but this is a sizeable home (~400m2) and I had to get a lot of ‘stuff’ squeezed in.

 

The MVHR install is considerable, but I have installed it all with ZERO impact on GIA; no boxing in etc, and CVC providing solutions to achieve this wherever I needed to reach out. 
 

 

It would 100% been a complete PITA to have to do this from scratch with no initial design, and I have a long history of such installations and am very capable, so any novice or DIY self-builder should defo reach out for support and CVC will do their best (based on the information you give them  ). 

[Oz07]

2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

The key word is “reality”. 
 

These drawings are single discipline, unless you have provided a ‘line out’ of your other large bore services such as soil and waste pipework etc, so that is always the crux.

 

Current project, CVC supporting and myself installing (and adapting the design to suit) on the fly:

 

 

 

I changed a few bits around, and did my own thing with the manifolds to make it more sympathetic. 
 

Actual install when it was WIP:

 

 

 

As you can see, I abandoned the square box manifolds as I had other services in some of the posi joist voids which took up too much space; these needed to take priority so needs must.

 

It gets very busy very quickly, but this is a sizeable home (~400m2) and I had to get a lot of ‘stuff’ squeezed in.

 

The MVHR install is considerable, but I have installed it all with ZERO impact on GIA; no boxing in etc, and CVC providing solutions to achieve this wherever I needed to reach out. 
 

 

It would 100% been a complete PITA to have to do this from scratch with no initial design, and I have a long history of such installations and am very capable, so any novice or DIY self-builder should defo reach out for support and CVC will do their best (based on the information you give them  ). 

Why is all the soil pipework UG? Suppose it doesn't matter anyway

[saveasteading]

Did you have to forego any areas of insulation in the outer walls?

[LnP]

5 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

 

Current project, CVC supporting and myself installing (and adapting the design to suit) on the fly:

 

That's an impressive installation and it's good to hear you get good support from CVC. What I'm seeing though is that they are expensive. For my 280 m² house CVC quoted £9071 supply of materials excluding the duct layout or commissioning for a Brink Flair. That included a 30% discount. Heat Space and Light quoted £7665 supply of materials including the duct layout and commissioning for a Zehnder.

[Great_scot_selfbuild]

54 minutes ago, LnP said:

That's an impressive installation and it's good to hear you get good support from CVC. What I'm seeing though is that they are expensive. For my 280 m² house CVC quoted £9071 supply of materials excluding the duct layout or commissioning for a Brink Flair. That included a 30% discount. Heat Space and Light quoted £7665 supply of materials including the duct layout and commissioning for a Zehnder.

Interesting - mine came in at £6103 (CVC) for not far off a similar size. 

[Indy]

6 hours ago, LnP said:

That's an impressive installation and it's good to hear you get good support from CVC. What I'm seeing though is that they are expensive. For my 280 m² house CVC quoted £9071 supply of materials excluding the duct layout or commissioning for a Brink Flair. That included a 30% discount. Heat Space and Light quoted £7665 supply of materials including the duct layout and commissioning for a Zehnder.

Similar size and similar price for us from HSL. I can’t remember the exact amount but it was around £7.5k for the design, materials and commissioning. We did get the larger 90mm ducts as part of the package. 

[Nickfromwales]

10 hours ago, Oz07 said:

Why is all the soil pipework UG? Suppose it doesn't matter anyway

Exactly that, just doesn’t matter for one, but in domestic you get a poor selection of fittings whereas the UG stuff opens up a much greater selection. 🤝👍

[Nickfromwales]

7 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Did you have to forego any areas of insulation in the outer walls?

Only where the ducts go to atmosphere. 

[Oz07]

21 hours ago, LnP said:

That's an impressive installation and it's good to hear you get good support from CVC. What I'm seeing though is that they are expensive. For my 280 m² house CVC quoted £9071 supply of materials excluding the duct layout or commissioning for a Brink Flair. That included a 30% discount. Heat Space and Light quoted £7665 supply of materials including the duct layout and commissioning for a Zehnder.

Crazy my place will be half the size i wasn't hoping to spend near 5k on mvhr. 

How are these things dearer than boilers

[Nickfromwales]

19 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

Crazy my place will be half the size i wasn't hoping to spend near 5k on mvhr. 

How are these things dearer than boilers

They’re not.
 

Price a full central heating system with 2 floors of pipework and radiators, valves and controls, plus the boiler, and labour.

 

Or better still, only compare apples with apples lol

 

If you want MVHR for <£5k then you’ll be going DIY for sure. The above install, start to absolute finish with nearly all vents being the very nice plaster-in ones, and no compromise / everything upsized for redundancy and absolute silent operation etc, will be well north of 5 figures, (and the first number is a 2 btw).

 

It’s a large, very contemporary dwelling, vaulted ceilings throughout, and you cannot tell the house has MVHR as I’ve put a huge amount of time and effort into making it so. Some clients see value in this level of finesse, others do not; “horses for courses”, and the price goes up or down (significantly) to suit. 
 

My next ‘task’ is to complete the hideaway AC install and set all the plaster-in vents for these 5 ducted units. I am having to hand-craft snorkels and ductwork out of 20mm XPS insulated backer boards, where 3 units share the same ‘cupboard’ so they remain “room sealed”…….I am making rectangular boxes as accumulators / diverters and am even going to the lengths of forming radiuses out of pieces of XPS to guide airflow and keep these as quiet as possible; oddly us human being will tolerate some audibility from cooling as we just hate being too hot, whereas any noise from MVHR is usually intolerable to the point of distraction. 

 

1st one is now done and it’s a thing of beauty, so only 4 more left to hand make (in the smallest places we could shoe horn them into ). Joy 🥳. 

[Oz07]

2 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

They’re not.
 

Price a full central heating system with 2 floors of pipework and radiators, valves and controls, plus the boiler, and labour.

 

Or better still, only compare apples with apples lol

 

If you want MVHR for <£5k then you’ll be going DIY for sure. The above install, start to absolute finish with nearly all vents being the very nice plaster-in ones, and no compromise / everything upsized for redundancy and absolute silent operation etc, will be well north of 5 figures, (and the first number is a 2 btw).

 

It’s a large, very contemporary dwelling, vaulted ceilings throughout, and you cannot tell the house has MVHR as I’ve put a huge amount of time and effort into making it so. Some clients see value in this level of finesse, others do not; “horses for courses”, and the price goes up or down (significantly) to suit. 
 

My next ‘task’ is to complete the hideaway AC install and set all the plaster-in vents for these 5 ducted units. I am having to hand-craft snorkels and ductwork out of 20mm XPS insulated backer boards, where 3 units share the same ‘cupboard’ so they remain “room sealed”…….I am making rectangular boxes as accumulators / diverters and am even going to the lengths of forming radiuses out of pieces of XPS to guide airflow and keep these as quiet as possible; oddly us human being will tolerate some audibility from cooling as we just hate being too hot, whereas any noise from MVHR is usually intolerable to the point of distraction. 

 

1st one is now done and it’s a thing of beauty, so only 4 more left to hand make (in the smallest places we could shoe horn them into ). Joy 🥳. 

It does sound like a bells and whistles job. I dare say the house is worth over a million quid though pretty high spec. Mine will deffo be diy, last one was. I won't be having the plaster in vents. 

[Oz07]

5 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

They’re not.
 

Price a full central heating system with 2 floors of pipework and radiators, valves and controls, plus the boiler, and labour.

 

Or better still, only compare apples with apples lol

 

If you want MVHR for <£5k then you’ll be going DIY for sure. The above install, start to absolute finish with nearly all vents being the very nice plaster-in ones, and no compromise / everything upsized for redundancy and absolute silent operation etc, will be well north of 5 figures, (and the first number is a 2 btw).

 

It’s a large, very contemporary dwelling, vaulted ceilings throughout, and you cannot tell the house has MVHR as I’ve put a huge amount of time and effort into making it so. Some clients see value in this level of finesse, others do not; “horses for courses”, and the price goes up or down (significantly) to suit. 
 

My next ‘task’ is to complete the hideaway AC install and set all the plaster-in vents for these 5 ducted units. I am having to hand-craft snorkels and ductwork out of 20mm XPS insulated backer boards, where 3 units share the same ‘cupboard’ so they remain “room sealed”…….I am making rectangular boxes as accumulators / diverters and am even going to the lengths of forming radiuses out of pieces of XPS to guide airflow and keep these as quiet as possible; oddly us human being will tolerate some audibility from cooling as we just hate being too hot, whereas any noise from MVHR is usually intolerable to the point of distraction. 

 

1st one is now done and it’s a thing of beauty, so only 4 more left to hand make (in the smallest places we could shoe horn them into ). Joy 🥳. 

How much is a mvhr unit alone to service 150m2 vs a boiler to do the same?

What would a boiler be 1000 or less?

[Nickfromwales]

29 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

How much is a mvhr unit alone to service 150m2 vs a boiler to do the same?

What would a boiler be 1000 or less?

What boiler?

 

A £450 biasi, or a £2k+ super boiler?

 

You can go cheap seats or “buy once buy right”, same with a car, same with a pair of shoes.

 

Look on air-haus.co.uk (CVC’s box-shifting site) and look for yourself what is available and for what price suits your budget, but for a machine / system that you switch on the day you move in, and NEVER switch it off ever again, I’d buy sensibly and robustly.

 

Anything sewn deep into the fabric of the house should see more thought than the kitchen imho, and the budget should be created accordingly, however some people begrudge this for whatever daft reason. 🤷‍♂️

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

you want MVHR for <£5k then you’ll be going DIY for sure.

Yep I was quoted £10k for single storey 193m². So just waited for things to be the right price.  Less than £2k for me fully installed and commissioned.  Spending any more than that is money you will never recoup in energy savings.  You may as well go for a smart MEV or dMEV system.

 

40 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

but for a machine / system that you switch on the day you move in, and NEVER switch it off ever again, I’d buy sensibly and robustly

Yep, I went Titon HRV, well built robust, never switched off unless I am servicing.

[Indy]

The lower end of the pricing scale is for DIY systems generally. Definitely doable but you need to know what you’re getting in to and it’s not that difficult for a new build when the walls and floors are open. A lot harder when you’re working around existing plumbing and cables for a retrofit. 

[Oz07]

53 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Yep I was quoted £10k for single storey 193m². So just waited for things to be the right price.  Less than £2k for me fully installed and commissioned.  Spending any more than that is money you will never recoup in energy savings.  You may as well go for a smart MEV or dMEV system.

 

Yep, I went Titon HRV, well built robust, never switched off unless I am servicing.

What did you pay for your bare units? What do they rrp for?

[LnP]

2 hours ago, Oz07 said:

How much is a mvhr unit alone to service 150m2 vs a boiler to do the same?

What would a boiler be 1000 or less?

The Zehnder Q450 from HSL was £2651 and the Brink Flair 600 from CVC was £2510. Design required flow for my house is 320 m³/h but CVC say they nevertheless recommend a 600 m³/h unit, which they say gives less noise, greater efficiency and longer fan life.

I bought a Worcester Greenstar 4000 25 kW combi boiler in 2022 which cost me £666, but that was with a trade discount. Current online price is about £1500. So I tend to agree, these MVHRs look expensive. Prices from people like CVC and HSL are without a trade discount.

[Iceverge]

Back to OP's original q. 

We didn't install any heating but relied on a plug in radiator for a couple of years until the electricity price rocketed, enter stage left the Daikin FTXM25R. 

 

A2A is a wondrous thing, cheap to install, cheap to run and simple to use. Heating and cooling and it cannot leak as there's no water.  

We have one in the downstairs hallway, nothing else, give it long enough to run and it'll keep the house ( passive class) appropriately toasty. (Bathrooms need a small boost with a fan heater for comfort.

 

One worry I'd have is that it wouldn't cool the upstairs as much as cool air tends to sink and warm air rises but I've never had cause to try. Sensibly sized bedroom windows, all rooms with cross ventilation and the south of Ireland doesn't suffer England type nighttime temps. 

 

In your situation and wanting to allay fears of future saleability I'd do UFH with cooling throughout as mentioned earlier. 

 

 

If it were me I'd do a 70mm duct and a fused spur in a hallway upstairs and downstairs and move in and install A2A as an when you felt it necessary and spend the saved cash on the fabric of the building. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Iceverge

[Oz07]

37 minutes ago, LnP said:

The Zehnder Q450 from HSL was £2651 and the Brink Flair 600 from CVC was £2510. Design required flow for my house is 320 m³/h but CVC say they nevertheless recommend a 600 m³/h unit, which they say gives less noise, greater efficiency and longer fan life.

I bought a Worcester Greenstar 4000 25 kW combi boiler in 2022 which cost me £666, but that was with a trade discount. Current online price is about £1500. So I tend to agree, these MVHRs look expensive. Prices from people like CVC and HSL are without a trade discount.

It must be volume production economics. I remember people saying how simple mvhr units are inside. 

[Oz07]

19 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

Back to OP's original q. 

We didn't install any heating but relied on a plug in radiator for a couple of years until the electricity price rocketed, enter stage left the Daikin FTXM25R. 

 

A2A is a wondrous thing, cheap to install, cheap to run and simple to use. Heating and cooling and it cannot leak as there's no water.  

We have one in the downstairs hallway, nothing else, give it long enough to run and it'll keep the house ( passive class) appropriately toasty. (Bathrooms need a small boost with a fan heater for comfort.

 

One worry I'd have is that it wouldn't cool the upstairs as much as cool air tends to sink and warm air rises but I've never had cause to try. Sensibly sized bedroom windows, all rooms with cross ventilation and the south of Ireland doesn't suffer England type nighttime temps. 

 

If it was me in you situation and wanted to allay fears of future saleability I'd do UFH with cooling throughout as mentioned earlier. 

 

 

If it were me I'd do a 70mm duct and a fused spur in a hallway upstairs and downstairs and move in and install A2A as an when you felt it necessary and spend the saved cash on the fabric of the building. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I dont think anyone looking at a house in future would be put off with a2a. So should suit op?

[Iceverge]

3 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

I dont think anyone looking at a house in future would be put off with a2a. So should suit op?

 

I think people would be worried about the unfamiliarity of it because we're all somewhat cavemanish when it comes to our houses. 

 

Mind you a few weeks of no sleep in 30deg bedrooms in conventionally heated houses this year might broaden people's imaginations. 

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, Oz07 said:

What did you pay for your bare units? What do they rrp for?

Titon HRV10 Q Plus, £250 delivered 

Titon HRV1.75 Q plus, £320. Retail was is about £1300 for the smaller one and £1500 for the large one.

[JohnMo]

10 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

I dont think anyone looking at a house in future would be put off with a2a. So should suit op?

Not sure about that, some people or a lot of people see Aircon and see £££ bills. Having lived with almost mandatory Aircon (hot country) for a few years, I am not a fan of it.