New concept to make self and custom build easier and more accessible.

[Nickfromwales]

7 hours ago, saveasteading said:

No. Just be safe, use experienced workers and reasonable care and attention.

It is to keep people safe not make paperwork.

A risk assessment is simple. What are we doing?how? What are the risks? How do we reduce or avoid these? Do it thus and brief those involved.

Yes people make money from the paperwork from those who will pay.

But HSE basically don't want to report on squashed people.

You ask all bonafide contractors for their RAMS too, before they step foot on site, and you also do inductions (regardless of how “busy” you are). 
 

And make the site a safe and organised place to be. Allow a lot of time clearing up, sweeping (M-class vacuum needs to be on site as you’re not supposed to kick up dust these days), festoon lighting, don’t have sharp or ‘stabby’ things poking out of ground (rebar protruding needs to be bent back over itself or a mushroom cap put on it), no unmarked or open pits or trenches or barrier around them, list goes on but not rocket science. 
 

Take risks with your own life all you like, they can’t jail you for that, but when you invite any 3rd party there then the onus is on you to make them ‘not expire’ ahead of their predetermined departure from this life.

[Oz07]

20 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

You ask all bonafide contractors for their RAMS too, before they step foot on site, and you also do inductions (regardless of how “busy” you are). 
 

And make the site a safe and organised place to be. Allow a lot of time clearing up, sweeping (M-class vacuum needs to be on site as you’re not supposed to kick up dust these days), festoon lighting, don’t have sharp or ‘stabby’ things poking out of ground (rebar protruding needs to be bent back over itself or a mushroom cap put on it), no unmarked or open pits or trenches or barrier around them, list goes on but not rocket science. 
 

Take risks with your own life all you like, they can’t jail you for that, but when you invite any 3rd party there then the onus is on you to make them ‘not expire’ ahead of their predetermined departure from this life.

Not many small subbies will have a rams but in the days of AI I suppose its easy enough to knock one up. 

[saveasteading]

4 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

easy enough to knock one up. 

That's the trouble. Many are generic rubbish along the lines of safety being our priority.

Also you need to see their insurance... the whole document. Eg I once had a roofer who was highly competent but on checking,  his insurance excluded work above 3m.  He knew it said that, and it was cheap or all he could get. but nobody had ever checked.

 

I've met HSE inspectors several times. They asked for the paperwork but actually wanted to see competence and safe practices. Hey were genuinely interested and helpful... but tough.I'd hate their job... squashed people, missing digits... look and report. Meanwhile being disliked by the workforce.

 

What they hate is to find nobody in control.

On the occasions they told us or our contractors off, they were right.

 

The safety people who like paperwork are safety consultants and company safety officers.... 

[saveasteading]

18 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

Not many small subbies will have a rams

You might have to do it with them and get them to sign. As long as it is logical and sensible they should be OK.

[Redbeard]

Agree with @Nickfromwales re desirability of RAMS etc., but particularly with @saveasteading re whether they actually mean anything.

 

On one job of mine the EWI sub-contractor provided an impressive, unnecessarily lengthy, RAMS, but I am fairly certain the 'chaps on the tools' had never seen it. On another EWI job the contractor on the tools, their manager *and* the system provider's rep all showed an 'interesting' interpretation of a very obvious thermal by-pass situation. Again, in that case, the 'paper'work was great.

 

In reality, in these cases, a jolly good talk prior to start on site, with clear understanding on both sides, would have achieved much more than the 'paperwork' did in practice.

[Nickfromwales]

39 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

Not many small subbies will have a rams but in the days of AI I suppose its easy enough to knock one up. 

You need to cover your arse if you want to pretend to be a PC. 

[Nickfromwales]

20 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

You might have to do it with them and get them to sign. As long as it is logical and sensible they should be OK.

As above. 👆. It’s for the covering of one’s arse, vs staring blankly back and saying “what are RAMS?” if or when the shit hits the fan.

[Redbeard]

1 hour ago, Redbeard said:

In reality, in these cases, a jolly good talk prior to start on site, with clear understanding on both sides, would have achieved much more than the 'paperwork' did in practice.

...but, to be clear, I am not saying you do not need the 'paper' - you need, overall, to ensure compliance, probably via 'sensible conversation' followed by the document.

[MPx]

Interesting - this is about proportionality and talking responsibility to me and feels like the pendulum has swung too far - but clearly many here disagree. 

Yes I've read the rules.

Yes I've written and requested the required documents.

Yes I make best efforts to comply - including inductions/signatures/tidyness/etc.

No I don't want people hurt or worse on my project.

 

My points were: its extra work, extra expense, another whole layer of bureaucracy, not that clear to a self builder (or indeed a traditional builder who didn't have to bother with it pre 2015.)  In summary yet another barrier to the average person putting them off taking on a self build which is what this thread was intending to mitigate.

[saveasteading]

Let's put this in perspective.

 

How many on here have had a  formal visit or request to inspect the site or request to see the safety document?

 

Unless you have an accident or complaint it's very unlikely.

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

How many on here have had a  formal visit or request to inspect the site or request to see the safety document?

I suspect there is a stronger correlation between sites with good paperwork and low accident rates. 

 

[ToughButterCup]

... erm , stronger  positive  correlation I think.  😁

[Dave Jones]

architects have been doing this (badly) for years.

[SteamyTea]

14 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

... erm , stronger  positive  correlation I think.  😁

Depends how it is worded and chatted.

 

If x-axis is accidents, and y-axis is volume of useful paperwork, then if my hunch is right, it should be a negative correlation.

Swap the axis around, and it becomes positive (but still shows the same result).

if, on the other hand, the paperwork is too voluminous, badly written and unorganised, them the correlation could be 0, or flat, but with a lot of variance between data points.

 

[saveasteading]

For general interest.

When written risk assessments became a requirement, we put one together that was about 8 pages long, and attached to it a standard A4 form for each specific task. So there might only be one at the start of the job.

HSE snap visits (maybe 10% of projects or one per year) asked to see it. They were able to read it in 5 minutes, and follow up with questions and a site tour.

One inspector said he wished all manuals were like this, but that sadly it was changing.

 

What they most want to know.

Who is in charge? Everyone on site should know.

Then asks that person what is happening today, and show me the relevant paperwork.

Then a look at the work in progress and site in general. Often they'd give good advice 

 

 

 

When I retired, our file had expanded somewhat, as required,  but was kept relevant and job specific, and was generally one lever arch, half full.

On a major national contractor's site I saw they had 3 very full, big files. I happened to be in their cabin, being a subcontractor, when HSE turned up.  The manager couldn't find the relevant bit. HSE not impressed. That file was designed to keep the hierarchy safe, not the site personnel.

Mine he read and praised, looked at what we were doing and that was that. 

 

The bulk of the paperwork that is just waffle was (and is) of no interest.

 

So do it. They don't expect a professional file for a self- build but would from any biggish contactor you are using.

They have always been decent people in my experience.

 

The best bit of advice I can give for safety is to think "what could go wrong" and note the measures in place or sort it.

Practically it is often  by not having too much going on at the same time.

 

If I could find one of my blank forms I'd depersonalise it and publish it here...but I can't.

Maybe someone else can.

 

What you really, really don't want is HSE turning up to you after dealing with a nasty accident somewhere else and finding a shambles.