Condensate pipe

[Babybirddog]

Hi, I am after some advice.

Just been to visit my 92 year old mother. Didn't realise that British Gas were replacing her boiler. All the internal stuff looks OK but a bit concerned about the condensate drain that has just been placed in a downpipe branch. Not fixed just resting in there. Ignore blue cloth, protection from stripping paint.

Thanks. Karen.

[SimonD]

Yeah, that's not great. It should be fully insulated and the insulation should go all the way through the wall. Just resting like that isn't good either. I would personally probably have 2 clips - one just after the bend as it exits the wall and the second before it enters the down pipe. Also, wtf were they thinking with the black? Just looks crap. Not very good standard at all and enough to question the rest of the installation, frankly. Get them back to sort it out as it doesn't comply with the regs or with the manufacturer's instructions on condensate drainage for a start. They should know better. 

[Nickfromwales]

British Gas are just shite on toast, and their forte is ripping off pensioners.

 

Be lucky if she got a Worcester, more likely they've gone bottom shelf and fitted a glow-worm.

 

The above is exactly what I would have drawn if someone asked me  to sketch a typical BG condensate arrangement. Just shocking.

 

I went to one pensioner that had become another victim, and as they hadn’t brought a ladder, above 2m around the side of the house, the copper gas pipe just wasn’t clipped, literally flapping in the wind.

 

They put a combi in and left the old boy with a manual mixer shower, so he was getting scalding hot water from it; you can’t leave anyone infirm with a non-thermostatic shower fed from and instantaneous hot water heater.
 

List of this goes on and on, from what I’ve seen over the years from BG.

 

Great adverts, even better sales-people,  then the most dogshit plumbing you’ve ever seen.

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, SimonD said:

They should know better

They couldn't give 2 (expletive deleted)s mate.

[Gus Potter]

3 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

They couldn't give 2 (expletive deleted)s mate.

I agree how on earth can this be justified. 

 

Now they might say well ok we are following the gas regs we have the right tun dish inside so the over pressure is discharged. 

 

Putting my SE hat on I'll say if that pipe freezes you can't have water pouring into the structure. Now the building regs support my statement. 

 

It's a disgrace. Between you and I @Nickfromwaleswe could make hay with this compliant! And to do this to a person of this age is appalling. My own view is that there needs to be a bit of punishment element to discourage others. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Babybirddog said:

Hi, I am after some advice.

The way you actually win this argument is to use a technique that I deploy against say the NHBC for example. You might have a valid case for saying it's a structural safety issue. Then your case will get elevated up the chain. The structural issue is that if the pipe freezes water will potentially get into the structure and cause structural damage. You might argue that it might stain your flooring..but that is subjective, but as an SE if I argue the safety case they start to maybe wake up and smell the coffee.

 

Karen, be persistent. What is happening here is gate keeping, they deny, delay, defend. 

 

 

 

[Gus Potter]

Ok @Nickfromwales and

2 hours ago, Babybirddog said:

Hi, I am after some advice.

Karen. To expand, my mum is 95. The following happend to my neighbour. 

 

The rainwater down pipe got blocked and the water backed up. The water then flooded back up the discharge pipe, over flowed the tundish inside, soaked the electrical fuse box, soaked the floors.

 

Karen. You are right on this. If you need some help then happy to chip in with a draft text to support a complaint as I'm sure @Nickfromwales will also do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SimonD]

24 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

Now they might say well ok we are following the gas regs we have the right tun dish inside so the over pressure is discharged. 

 

Putting my SE hat on I'll say if that pipe freezes you can't have water pouring into the structure. Now the building regs support my statement. 

 

The condensate drain doesn't really work like this. The condensate pipework is technically part of the boiler flue, so it has a 75mm condensate seal trap built into the boiler. In the event of freezing the condensate backs up into the the trap, and then into the boiler heat exchanger and triggers an ignition lock out in the boiler. Depending on the manufacturer's instructions, the condensate drain may not require an air gap where it connects into the drain pipe.

Unless the system has a UVC, it's unlikely to use a tundish as there will be a blow off pipe for the pressure relief valve. This should be directed to the outside, or a suitable drain. There's a chance the installer here might have installed the prv into this condensate drain pipe in which case it would need a tundish, but I'd wouldn't expect BG to do something like this - usually they drill a whole and stick a 15mm copper pipe through. Only a couple of manufacturers, like Viessmann have a combined prv and condensate drain, which is again unlikely with BG installations.

Best thing to do is for @Babybirddog to call Gas Safe to start a complaint, sending over a picture and then ask for an inspector to come and have a look at the whole installation - basically start the call with a nice question about whether it's correct or not. Then contact BG armed with Gas Safe info. With Gas Safe they will only allow the home owner to submit the complaint. The last one I had was when a customer of mine, an elderly lady who was mostly chair and bed bound, asked me to come and service her boiler. When I tested gas operating pressure with the gas fire running it was below the safe minimum for the fire. I asked her when the fire had been installed, and got the full story on a crap installation that included badly laid out coals which meant the gas fire wasn't combusting correctly either. The installer hadn't registered the installation with Gas Safe. I called them but they wouldn't accept my complaint as a Gas Safe registered engineer even though I told them the installation was unsafe.
 

58 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

They couldn't give 2 (expletive deleted)s mate.

 

Sadly, whoever did it, didn't! It could have been a sub-contractor too.

[Gus Potter]

6 minutes ago, SimonD said:

The condensate drain doesn't really work like this. The condensate pipework is technically part of the boiler flue, so it has a 75mm condensate seal trap built into the boiler. In the event of freezing the condensate backs up into the the trap,

I was generalising. I makes no difference as you should know. The condensate seal trap works the same way. It does not matter if it is internal or external to the boiler. The fact is that if water backs up in the rain water pipe it's going to piss out inside the house big time and wet all the electrics for example. . Of course it triggers a cut out of the boiler but where does the over pressure from the rain water pipe go then. If the rain water pipe backs up then the pressure head is at gutter level say that is 2.5 to 3.0m head. 

 

In the round the thing stinks.

 

14 minutes ago, SimonD said:

Unless the system has a UVC, it's unlikely to use a tundish as there will be a blow off pipe for the pressure relief valve.

This sounds like a bit of a straw man argument. 

 

16 minutes ago, SimonD said:

There's a chance the installer here might have installed the prv into this condensate drain pipe in which case it would need a tundish, but I'd wouldn't expect BG to do something like this - usually they drill a whole and stick a 15mm copper pipe through. Only a couple of manufacturers, like Viessmann have a combined prv and condensate drain, which is again unlikely with BG installations.

Are you serious? A Pressure relief valve into a condensate pipe? Can you explain in lay terms? 

[Babybirddog]

Thanks for the replies.

It was the black joint sticking out like a sore thumb that I saw, otherwise might not have paid much attention.

I have since found out that she was quoted and charged for a soak away. Luckily my sister picked this up and they deducted an amount from the bill (221.64). It has not yet been paid.

Should I insist that they install the soak away, would this solve the problem.

Contacting gas safe seems like a plan.

 

[Nickfromwales]

2 minutes ago, Babybirddog said:

Thanks for the replies.

It was the black joint sticking out like a sore thumb that I saw, otherwise might not have paid much attention.

I have since found out that she was quoted and charged for a soak away. Luckily my sister picked this up and they deducted an amount from the bill (221.64). It has not yet been paid.

Should I insist that they install the soak away, would this solve the problem.

Contacting gas safe seems like a plan.

 

You’re better off with it going into the downpipe, but it needs to be done better. Refuse to settle until the fitting is a white one, theres a rubber bung reducer to accept the round pipe into the square fitting, and its set back to the wall and clipped; minimum of 2 clips here.

 

A soakaway needs lime chippings in it to neutralise the condensate, and these will need changing periodically. If not, that can eat into the foundations, worst case.

 

Do you want to post some pics of the boiler install here? Just in case the faux pas extends to the boiler and pipework. 
 

If theres now a combi, is the shower mixer a thermostatic valve vs a manual mixer valve?

 

Gas Safe is another cartel run by muppets, so I doubt they’ll show much interest in an install which they will decide is not “immediately dangerous”.

 

Show some more pics before paying is my advice. 

[Nickfromwales]

7 hours ago, SimonD said:

Unless the system has a UVC, it's unlikely to use a tundish as there will be a blow off pipe for the pressure relief valve. This should be directed to the outside, or a suitable drain. There's a chance the installer here might have installed the prv into this condensate drain pipe in which case it would need a tundish, but I'd wouldn't expect BG to do something like this

Last job I was called to, was by an electrician friend who sub-contracted to British Gas. He asked if I could go to a job he was being called out to (old to new combi conversion) as he took one look and walked off as BG had specified using whatever original infrastructure that could he reused to save time and money. 

 

BG plumbers, and not subbed out (rare occurrence as once you’ve been woo’d by the sales folk you’re lucky if you ever see BG again, other than on a bill or standing order…..). Anyways, these ‘plumbers’ had hacked into the wiring centre and got the system running, but had requested that an electrician attend site to “tidy it up”.  

 

I arrived, introduced myself to the 82 and 83 year old, one deaf and one with bad cataracts, and my jaw hit the floor when I saw the aftermath.

 

Bear in mind that at this stage BG were paid up front, and had left, job declared as “complete” and these pensioners had been left for multiples of days without a working heating or hot water system, that they just accepted as part of the upheaval.

 

IIRC the bill was over £5k for removing a Baxi 551 and screwing some bits of cement board over the opening, and they installed a Glowworm heat only boiler on the outside wall, on show in the dining room. Fecking horrific looking install.

 

I ventured into the depths of the airing cupboard (ground floor flat btw) and located the wiring centre. It had loose wires sticking out of the poorly squeezed on lid, screw half done up.

 

I got my tester out and found that there were live wires projecting from the side and top. I shit you not.

 

I told the couple I had serious concerns, and asked for the sales pack. I asked the lady of the house to ring the sales support number and to speak to them to authorise myself to act on their behalf. She did. 
 

Whilst on hold (forever) I walked to rest of the job. I found the blowoff turned back on itself and in complete contact with the render of the wall, as in nearly fully sealed; there must be open gaps here so the water cannot form ice build up and block the PRV. Terrible. 
 

Also, the condensate had been drilled through the wall in 21.5mm pipe, and this had simply had a bend added (both of these immediately out of the rear if the boiler jig, at chest height) and it was just dripping onto the concrete pathway between them and the neighbour who shared the access. Set in place to slowly erode the pathway and house foundation over time.

 

No flush had been done, 30 year old system! Guys were on site less than a day.

 

I got given the phone to speak to some jumped up Scottish BG woman who was asking me who I was, to which I replied “your worst enemy, love”. I said they had an hour to get a BG van pulling up outside or I was going to the local press and the GSR, and told her that countdown started when the lady was put on hold; that gave them 40 mins to attend.

 

BG employee got proper shitty with me, continued to demand to know who I was, and what business of mine was it of mine to be involved in their job etc etc. I just kept saying “now you've now got 38 minutes and counting, love, I hope you’re typing and talking as you’re about to go public for endangering the lives of two pensioners, and may also get BG struck off by the GSR”.

 

Eventually she said the best they could do was call out in 2-3 days and she promised everything would be sorted out without fail. 
 

I said “you now have 35 minutes, keep chatting shit for as long as you like. BTW, I’m parked close to this house and I’ve cancelled my next job to sit here and see this through. Your move, love”.

 

2 vans arrived about 30 mins after she hung up on me lol.

 

Wankers.

 

I left my phone number with the couple and told them to call me if they didn’t have heating and hot water that day.

 

Did I say wankers?

 

Once more, for completeness, 

 

British Gas are pensioner robbing, unscrupulous, useless, underperforming, over-charging, responsibility-dodging, wankers.

[Spinny]

It is not just British Gas unfortunately. 88 year old family member with dementia had a boiler breakdown with a service contract. As his boiler was old he asked them for a new one and was passed onto the sales team. Next thing they send a salesman around to his house, who then sends him a quote to replace his UVC system with a combi boiler. Was a hell of a job for us to get things unwound and sorted for him - endless phone calls, emails, medical documents, LPA documents.

 

Fortunately the subcontract maintenance plumber (who had once been a carer) knew what they were like and was very helpful.

 

Too many companies are happy to rip off the elderly it seems.

[SimonD]

8 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

I was generalising. I makes no difference as you should know. The condensate seal trap works the same way. It does not matter if it is internal or external to the boiler. The fact is that if water backs up in the rain water pipe it's going to piss out inside the house big time and wet all the electrics for example. . Of course it triggers a cut out of the boiler but where does the over pressure from the rain water pipe go then. If the rain water pipe backs up then the pressure head is at gutter level say that is 2.5 to 3.0m head. 

 

In the round the thing stinks.

Gus, look at the picture, the condensate pipe is not sealed into the rain water pipe so if there's a buildup in the rain pipe it'll piss out where the condensate pipe is resting in the tee. Whilst it is 'okay' to have a sealed pipe connection into the down pipe, best practise is to install it with an air gap as a just in case measure.

 

8 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

This sounds like a bit of a straw man argument. 

I'm kind of a bit bemused. I'm trying to explain the typical set up, not have an argument. It seems a little ridiculous that the conversation even begins to lean towards an internal BH argument when it's fundamentally about helping an op with a poor installation. For the record I'm Gas Safe registered and have, up until January when I moved to exclusively install heat pumps, installed gas boilers for a living.

 

8 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

Are you serious? A Pressure relief valve into a condensate pipe? Can you explain in lay terms? 

Yes, there's a single discharge pipe that comes from the boiler that combines both, e.g. Viessmann 100-W, and that gets connected to a standard plastic drain pipe that carries it away. To make life easy for the installer, Viessmann also provides a nice bit of flexible pipe to run from the boiler to the pipework to carry this. It is also permissible to plumb in a PRV from the boiler into the condensate pipework using a tundish, providing that the plastic pipe can be shown to handle the required temperatures of discharge water.

[SimonD]

31 minutes ago, Spinny said:

It is not just British Gas unfortunately. 88 year old family member with dementia had a boiler breakdown with a service contract. As his boiler was old he asked them for a new one and was passed onto the sales team. Next thing they send a salesman around to his house, who then sends him a quote to replace his UVC system with a combi boiler. Was a hell of a job for us to get things unwound and sorted for him - endless phone calls, emails, medical documents, LPA documents.

 

Fortunately the subcontract maintenance plumber (who had once been a carer) knew what they were like and was very helpful.

 

Too many companies are happy to rip off the elderly it seems.

Not just the elderly. I went to service a customer's boiler that I had installed and was under a 12 year manufacturer's warranty. Over an Easter weekend the husband was at home alone and the boiler didn't work and instead of contacting the manufacturer or me, he called in an emergency company who charged him £1200 for the pleasure and didn't even specify what parts had been changed. When I inspected the boiler, I couldn't see any evidence of anything having been swapped out from new.  

[sgt_woulds]

Not just boilers.  When I finished with the solar industry (which by then was was full of cowboys - shocking installs in the literal sense) I moved into stairlifts.  It was supposed to be a temporary job but I ended up doing it for 5 years.

 

The most depressing 5 years of my life.  Anything to do with the elderly or infirm seems to be a licence to print money by unscrupulous salesmen and uncaring stairlift 'engineers'.  If you thing BG is bad, try dealing with Acorn.

 

I could tell you so many stories...