What's wrong with my glazing?

[Dunc]

Bright sunny day today (for the first time in a while) and noticed what seems to be condensation or contamination between the panes. It's not on either touchable surface; it appears to be between the glass panes. Seems to be only in the large fixed pane which is ~2x2m; the opening pane beside it is fine. South facing if that makes any difference. Triple glazed, aluminium clad, installed 2025.

Any ideas what this is? Causes? Solutions?

 

 

 

 

[MikeGrahamT21]

The glazing units seal has failed, allowing moisture into the gaps.

 

Only fix for triple glazing is to replace the glazed units with new. As they are so new, you should be covered by the warranty, and these should be replaced FoC

[Redbeard]

Oww! Yes, definitely failed unit. I'm gloomy enough about one of mine failing in year 11 of a 10-year warranty 😞, but yes, you should be covered without question. Who installed them - you or the supplier?

[Dunc]

Well that's disappointing to say the least. No end of trouble with these windows. I really wish we'd gone with another manufacturer.

 

Installed by their "recommended" installer, so not a direct link there. But at least we know I didn't mess it up. Will have to check the warranty to find out who's paying for the labour.

 

Rather gutted as we just finished cladding that side today. The timber in the window reveal will presmably have to come out to allow access. 

 

There just aren't enough swear words today 😡

[Oz07]

Whats the average lifespan of 3g units?

[Dunc]

57 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

Whats the average lifespan of 3g units?

Not bl**dy long enough 👿

[MikeGrahamT21]

3 hours ago, Dunc said:

Well that's disappointing to say the least. No end of trouble with these windows. I really wish we'd gone with another manufacturer.

 

Installed by their "recommended" installer, so not a direct link there. But at least we know I didn't mess it up. Will have to check the warranty to find out who's paying for the labour.

 

Rather gutted as we just finished cladding that side today. The timber in the window reveal will presmably have to come out to allow access. 

 

There just aren't enough swear words today 😡

I don’t know how timber windows are fitted with glazing units, but hopefully there will be some kind of beading holding the pane in and that’s all that will need removing.

[Dunc]

My timber cladding reveal boards overlap the aluminum of the window which itself ovelaps the glazing unit - they'll have to come off unfortunately. Doable, but irritating given I only finished installing today.

[Gus Potter]

6 hours ago, MikeGrahamT21 said:

The glazing units seal has failed, allowing moisture into the gaps.

Agree this is the probable cause.

 

4 hours ago, Oz07 said:

Whats the average lifespan of 3g units?

Can of worms here. 

 

I've noticed that the adverts say 10 year guarentee.. but in the fine print often now there is a caveat of 7 years on the glass units, both 2g and 3g. 

 

For all. I often post about taking a pragmatic and philistine apporach to say underfloor heating, I recollect that I've said similar applies to glazing in the sense that we are looking for the things that "are built into the house" to last the design life of the house. 

 

Now it's true glazing units can last a very long time. I've seen some still hanging in there 20 - 25 years or more. But the reality is that a lot of glazing units are going to have to be replaced at some point often before the rest of the building fabric does. This is a hidden cost, you could call it a maintenance cost that comes around every decade or so. 

 

In summary, when desinging buildings I make my Clients aware of this "hidden cost"and let them make up their own minds. I have Clients that say.. this is our "forever home". OK, but if it is you have to be aware that if you select really high end / expensive glazing then there is going to be a sting in the tail later on when they fail. 

 

One way to reduce the long term cost risk is to use a lower spec glazing system and spend the money on the wall, floor and roof insulation that we know will last the lifetime of the building. 

 

I have some Clients that don't have a bean to rub together, others are well funded and happy to take the risk. It's a personal choice, so long as I inform them then it's up to them how they spend their money. 

57 minutes ago, Dunc said:

My timber cladding reveal boards overlap the aluminum of the window which itself ovelaps the glazing unit

You might get lucky as you might be able to slide the new glass in from the casement side? Hang fire taking off the cladding for now!

 

 

 

 

 

[Oz07]

11 hours ago, Dunc said:

Not bl**dy long enough 👿

This is why when I plumbed it into AI it was basically saying 3g will never pay. Excluding any comfort factor 3g may afford over 2g. How much are the units are they roughly 50% more expensive as half armchair glass again? The u value difference between 1g and 2g was alot bigger than 2g vs 3g

[SteamyTea]

30 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

The u value difference between 1g and 2g was alot bigger than 2g vs 3g

Well what a surprise.

Every time you double insulation thickness, you halve the power though it.

So an inverse rule.

 

But this is really looking at the problem from the wrong point.

The overriding idea is to reduce total losses, and that depends on the relative ratios of surface areas.  So a building with 50% glazing would benefit more than a building with 20% glazing by having lower overall U-Value windows.  It will cost more to build (usually), but that is when you create a spreadsheet and work out the lifetime costs.  The last 4 years should have shown that energy prices can be very volatile, even with government support (even though domestic spend is still around the long term average of 5% of household income).

[Dunc]

When we were getting quote, cost difference between 2g and 3g was about 10% from the same manufacturer in my case. Much smaller than expected.

[craig]

High probabilty of a failed glazing unit, unfortunately this happens but should be covered by warranty. Do you mind me asking system/supplier? 
 

Glazing can be anywhere between 1 ((ulikely, usually minimum is 5) to 10 year warranty. It’s down to the warranty the manufacturer receives from the glass supplier. Just like hardware (handles for example) it is down to what the supplier of the hardware supplies as to the manufacturers warranty.

 

You should be covered though for new glass unit.

Edited 11 hours ago by craig

[SteamyTea]

15 minutes ago, craig said:

Glazing can be anywhere between 1 ((ulikely, usually minimum is 5) to 10 year warranty

When I changed my glazing units, the supplier offer a 1 year warrantee with timber frames (which I have) and 5 years with plastic frames, 7 years in they installed them.

Most now need changing after 20 years, so may go and see if he is still in business.

[Dunc]

6 hours ago, craig said:

High probabilty of a failed glazing unit, unfortunately this happens but should be covered by warranty. Do you mind me asking system/supplier? 
 

Glazing can be anywhere between 1 ((ulikely, usually minimum is 5) to 10 year warranty. It’s down to the warranty the manufacturer receives from the glass supplier. Just like hardware (handles for example) it is down to what the supplier of the hardware supplies as to the manufacturers warranty.

 

You should be covered though for new glass unit.

Dunno if it's in the spirit of the forum to disclose company names? @Buildhub Moderators can delete if required. These are windows from NordVest.

 

Have checked warranty detail. 2 years parts & labour, 5 years glazing & labour; further 5 years glazing but no labour....just shows how variable warranty can be. Perhaps I should have looked into this in more detail when choosing a supplier. But the headline "10 year warranty" seemed comparable with others. Doesn't fill me with joy for the long term.

[Mr Punter]

The south facing units are the ones that die quickest.

[craig]

38 minutes ago, Dunc said:

Dunno if it's in the spirit of the forum to disclose company names? @Buildhub Moderators can delete if required. These are windows from NordVest.

 

Have checked warranty detail. 2 years parts & labour, 5 years glazing & labour; further 5 years glazing but no labour....just shows how variable warranty can be. Perhaps I should have looked into this in more detail when choosing a supplier. But the headline "10 year warranty" seemed comparable with others. Doesn't fill me with joy for the long term.

 

It's not that uncommon to be honest, even the larger suppliers will only give approx. 2 years on parts, 5 years on glass and is about standard in all honesty. I'm not shocked at those. Manufacturers can only give the warranty for the periods the parts from the suppliers are warrantied to them for. The actual window construction (corner joints, lamination, etc. will be a longer 15/25 year period). It's really unfortunate that the glass has failed, it happens, it's a pain (excuse the pun) in the a**e but I wouldn't be blaming Nordvest on this occasion. As long as the complaint is accepted and a new glass unit supplied but that is down to the glass manufacturer and they have stringent rules they follow for this.

I'm presuming the installer and son were German? If yes, they know their stuff, I've known them for years.

Edited 4 hours ago by craig

[Redbeard]

47 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

The south facing units are the ones that die quickest.

 

I'm not quibbling with that as a general principle, but it was my N-facing one which 'died', not the W-facing one installed at the same time which gets extremely hot in the afternoon sun (even as I type, in early March).

[SteamyTea]

I have just remembered something from 40 years ago.

I had a misted up DG unit that got cracked.

The misting vanished.

I wonder if a small drill hole in the edge (that pane separator bit) may cure the problem.

May give it a go.

[-rick-]

4 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I wonder if a small drill hole in the edge (that pane separator bit) may cure the problem.

May give it a go.

 

That's not replacing the argon + seal. So even if it clears the view the window is still performing far worse than designed.

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, -rick- said:

not replacing the argon

Was not argon filled anyway.

 

I have always suspected that gases, even atomically large ones, get out over time though normal expansion and contraction.

The volumetric thermal expansion of argon, oxygen, nitrogen and air, at STP, are all pretty similar at 3.4 x 10^-3 K^-1.

[-rick-]

Just now, SteamyTea said:

Was not argon filled anyway.

 

I read your post as suggesting a solution to @Dunc

 

Just now, SteamyTea said:

I have always suspected that gases, even atomically large ones, get out over time though normal expansion and contraction.

The volumetric thermal expansion of argon, oxygen, nitrogen and air, at STP, are all pretty similar at 3.4 x 10^-3 K^-1.

 

I can see that happening over a long period of time and I'd guess the glazing industry has data on this. But I very much doubt it's relevant on the timescales discussed in this thread.

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, -rick- said:

guess the glazing industry has data on this

I would hope so.

 

(May have to check my figures as it seems wrong to me that they all have such similar volumetric expansions)