That's Scotland's entire population served.

[saveasteading]

Berwick Bank wind farm in the outer Firth of Forth with up to 307 turbines generating enough electricity to power up to six million homes.

 

So that supplies all Scotlands needs when the wind is blowing. Meters on the cables to England and Scandinavia and the Holyrood budget will benefit hugely.

[ProDave]

I posted a while back that the national grid operator has declared there will be no more wind farm connections to the grid in Scotland (after the ones already scheduled for connection) until at least 2035 and that more wind farms are needed in England and Wales.

 

We just need that implemented in planning policy because planning applications are still being decided for wind farms near us.  If you try objecting on the grounds they will not get a grid connection the planners say that is not a planning matter.

 

As usual no joined up thinking.  If a grid connection is not possible, then planning should not be possible.  Unless you want a load of wind farms built and probably paid some form of compensation for not generating because they cannot get connected?

[JohnMo]

And we currently get most days supplied by wind already. 

 

The more wind farms the better for me. At least the tax payer isn't paying hand over fist for decades while generation sites are built, unlike nuclear, which then gobbles up money for the next 100 generations managing the waste and securing the site that cannot be cleaned and stays irradiated.

[SteamyTea]

Had a bit of a traumatic day today, so not really kept up with the news, but the results of the power supply auctions were released today.

8.4 GW of wind.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/record-breaking-auction-for-offshore-wind-secured-to-take-back-control-of-britains-energy

[G and J]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

 

@SteamyTeaHope you're ok , J

[SteamyTea]

8 hours ago, G and J said:

Hope you're ok

I am fine, but thank you.

[ToughButterCup]

14 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Had a bit of a traumatic day today,...

 

Attack of wind son?   🙃

Hope you're recovering

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> taking back control of its energy, and lowering bills for good

 

Yeah, right. Until the big US tech firms double the load on the grid.

 

Err, what is being auctioned here - the right to build off the coast?

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

what is being auctioned here

I think so.

Works out cheaper than new gas.

[Roger440]

38 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I think so.

Works out cheaper than new gas.

 

Gas is, i understand, circa £55 v yesterdays 20 year commitment to paying £95. 20 years!

 

Guess i was right. Only one way for bills to go. Still makes it more viable to install solar and batteries etc.

 

Meanwhile oil prices are going down and projected to stay that way in the short to medium term. Guess ill hang on to my oil boiler.

Edited Thursday at 11:26 by Roger440

[SteamyTea]

40 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Gas is, i understand, circa £55 v yesterdays 20 year commitment to paying £95. 20 years

I think you are misunderstanding the whole concept of 'new generation'.

If you accept that we need to replace, and run, extra electrical capacity, which also includes the associated infrastructure, and it is also agreed that the price is fixed until some future date i.e. 20 years.  Then wind and solar are coming in as the cheapest.

To put it into automotive terms, it is like buying a car.  A new Ford Focus is between £24,200 and £33,770, on a finance deal, with Ford's BIK, the monthly price is between £140.48 and £343.84 (https://www.ford.co.uk/content/dam/guxeu/uk/documents/price-list/cars/PL-New_Focus.pdf)

Buy a second hand Focus, over ten years old, and the prices vary from £360 to £3, 984 (AutoTrader).

 

No good comparing two very prices. even if the product seems the same, while arguing that they are the same.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 12:06 by SteamyTea

[-rick-]

36 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Gas is, i understand, circa £55 v yesterdays 20 year commitment to paying £95. 20 years!

 

From the horses mouth:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/record-breaking-auction-for-offshore-wind-secured-to-take-back-control-of-britains-energy

 

It's more like £140 (gas) and £91 (new commitment) according to their figures.

 

Surprised me as both seem very high compared to the numbers that I'm used to thinking about. Later in the doc they say the prices are often stated adjusted to 2012 prices and in that regard the wind is £65 which sounds much more in line with what I was thinking.

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, -rick- said:

Surprised me as both seem very high compared to the numbers that I'm used to thinking about. Later in the doc they say the prices are often stated adjusted to 2012 prices and in that regard the wind is £65 which sounds much more in line with what I was thinking.

I don't understand the 2012 pricing.

2012 was when we held the Olympics.

And a good TV series about it.

 

[Roger440]

8 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

I think you are misunderstanding the whole concept of 'new generation'.

If you accept that we need to replace, and run, extra electrical capacity, which also includes the associated infrastructure, and it is also agreed that the price is fixed until some future date i.e. 20 years.  Then wind and solar are coming in as the cheapest.

To put it into automotive terms, it is like buying a car.  A new Ford Focus is between £24,200 and £33,770, on a finance deal, with Ford's BIK, the monthly price is between £140.48 and £343.84 (https://www.ford.co.uk/content/dam/guxeu/uk/documents/price-list/cars/PL-New_Focus.pdf)

Buy a second hand Focus, over ten years old, and the prices vary from £360 to £3, 984 (AutoTrader).

 

No good comparing two very prices. even if the product seems the same, while arguing that they are the same.

 

 

 

Whilst one can debate "existing V new" and the like, it is, to a large extent, acedemic.

 

The point is still the same. Thats awfully expensive, and can only result in ever higher prices to the consumer. Those costs dont include any of the required infrastructure for distribution as i understand it.

 

Summary. Electricity will get more expensive. Whatever government ministers might say. But we all know they lie, so i guess we shouldnt be surprised.

 

In a way though, it gets the result you always wanted. Make it so expensive that we either use less or find another way to self generate. It certainly reduces my concern that my payback calculations could be undermined by reductions in electricity cost.

 

Obviously wont be so good for those unable to invest in such measures because they dont have the capital. Nor the economy.

 

Must get the solar panels planted this summer.

 

 

[JohnMo]

18 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Must get the solar panels planted this summer.

Get your finger out!

[Roger440]

16 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Get your finger out!

 

Its the 150m cable run thats the killer! That needs trenching in.

[JohnMo]

3 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

Its the 150m cable run thats the killer! That needs trenching in.

Can you not surface run it?

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

Can you not surface run it?

 

Sadly not. Its got to come across a field, then a driveway/yard.

 

And i need to go big on cable size, because its, a) a long way so voltage drop becomes a real issue, b) if i want to increase the size of the array, which i almost certainly will as secondhand panels are so cheap now, i dont want to re-vsit the cable.

Edited Thursday at 22:55 by Roger440

[Dillsue]

9 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

Sadly not. Its got to come across a field, then a driveway/yard.

 

And i need to go big on cable size, because its, a) a long way so voltage drop becomes a real issue, b) if i want to increase the size of the array, which i almost certainly will as secondhand panels are so cheap now, i dont want to re-vsit the cable.

Put a duct in so you can easily change the cable if needed?? I don't know what the regs say but with a duct run to a "safe" area either end you may be able to run singles in the duct which will be way cheaper than an equivalent SWA.

[JohnMo]

9 hours ago, Roger440 said:

voltage drop becomes a real issue

Run in DC not AC, then volt drop isn't an issue 

[JohnMo]

9 hours ago, Roger440 said:

secondhand panels are so cheap

So are new one

[saveasteading]

9 hours ago, Roger440 said:

got to come across a field

Have you considered a plough type cable/ pipe laying machine?

[sgt_woulds]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

Run in DC not AC, then volt drop isn't an issue 

 

That sentance gets bandied about a lot, but we need to remember that this forum is open to the unititiated who might take it as gospel.

 

In simple terms you can perform a voltage drop calculation to determin which system will have less losses over the same distance with the same size conductors - generally, whether AC or DC, whichever has the highest voltage will have less voltage drop over the run. 

 

But efficiency is only part of the decision process, you also need to facter in cost and safety.

 

On the cost front, back in the 2000's when I was installing PV, it was always cheaper to fit a long run of AC vs DC.  Pure copper low loss double insulated solar cables were more expensive.  I haven't looked in years, but I don't imagine the costs have changed much!   We couldn't use 'standard' AC rated cable for DC as you always wanted to finish the cable with an MC plug, not a screw connection wherever possible.  With high voltage DC linked to variable(pulsing) solar, screw connections work loose and are an arc risk.  The DC plugs are only certified for installation with double insulated solar DC cable, so you couldn't just fit the same MC plugs to an  type AC cable.

 

Then you have the safety factor.  High voltage AC is always safer than high voltage DC, espescially when the cables are hidden.  I've been unfortunate enough to experience shocks from both, and I can tell you neither is fun, but I'm a lot more respectful of DC! 

 

High voltage AC can be protected with affordable and easily available RCD.  If someone puts a shovel through a buried AC cable, the power cuts in the blink of an eye, and the inverter shuts down.  

 

If the same spade goes through a buried DC cable, it forms a direct circuit with the solar panels at full power until the sun sets!

 

Again, I've been out of the game for a long time, and I know that DC RCM are now available for connection between the panels and field cables, but CMIIR, these don't work as quickly as an AC RCD, and are costly .  With long buried DC field cables you will also need to use very expensive DC specific double insulated and armoured cables.  Or 'ordinary' double insulated DC cables in armoured conduit.  

 

It would be usefull to hear from any practicing Solar installers / electricians for their thoughts

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 hours ago by sgt_woulds
poor grammer

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

Run in DC not AC, then volt drop isn't an issue 

 

You will still get volt drop in DC. When i worked it all out and priced the cabling, it was cheaper to do A/C.

 

Unless ive misunderstood something critical?

[Roger440]

36 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Have you considered a plough type cable/ pipe laying machine?

 

Yes!

 

Scratching around for a old mole plough i can stick on the tractor.  But, no idea what im actually doing!!!!