Outbuildings whilst building a house

[Leigh0403]

Hi everyone,

So I have built an outbuilding which is going to act as storage and welfare facilities whilst we build our new build. The council this morning have called saying they think we may need planning they have had a complaint. Can this not be used as a temporary building for now? Then could I keep it under PD rights once built?

[Mr Punter]

I am no expert but I don't think you get PD rights until the main building is finished.

[JohnMo]

10 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

I am no expert but I don't think you get PD rights until the main building is finished.

True, in theory you can only develop what's on the plans. Any changes either need minor amendments or full planning application. PD only exists after sign off at completion.

 

37 minutes ago, Leigh0403 said:

storage

On site storage is just an open invite to toe rags, to steal the contents.

[Conor]

You won't be able to claim the VAT back on this work unless it's on your planning drawings. Go back to planning and get it added in, if you want to keep it. Otherwise it'll have to come down. 

 

So you have your planning passed yet?

[kandgmitchell]

Assuming you have planning permission for your new build then refer the planners to this part of the Town and Country Planning ( General Permitted Development)(England) Order 2015 to be found in Schedule 2 which lists permitted development rights....

 

PART 4Temporary buildings and uses

Class A – temporary buildings and structures

Permitted development

A.  The provision on land of buildings, moveable structures, works, plant or machinery required temporarily in connection with and for the duration of operations being or to be carried out on, in, under or over that land or on land adjoining that land.

Development not permitted

A.1  Development is not permitted by Class A if—

(a)the operations referred to are mining operations, or

(b)planning permission is required for those operations but is not granted or deemed to be granted.

 

 

[Redbeard]

Is there a nuance here in relation to the 'after completion PD'? @kandgmitchell rightly point out that your 'during works' use seems to be covered 'for the duration of operations ...'  . Then it becomes 'un-PD', but would be PD after completion if you erected it again! If the Planners notice I wonder if they could require you to take it down in order to re-erect it?

Edited Monday at 16:30 by Redbeard
insert missed inverted comma

[Tony L]

Also consider that PP is often granted with a condition that the property will no longer have PD rights.

 

This probably doesn't help you, @Leigh0403, but the best thing to do is to get your outbuildings up before PP is granted (assuming they qualify as PD & they're not going to get in the way of the main build).

[DevilDamo]

Does the outbuilding not meet the PD requirements?

[Big Jimbo]

Right, i was previously told by the planning officer, to do my outbuildings, shed, dog kennel, etc. Before i started work on the planning permission. (However, i did have existing PD rights. ) He said to send him a few photos, and a map, showing where they were on the plot, and he would mark the records that they had been built, before the development started. i thought that was dodgy, because obviously, the new buildings would not be on the passed plans ! But, that is what he said to do.

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, Redbeard said:

Is there a nuance here in relation to the 'after completion PD'? @kandgmitchell rightly point out that your 'during works' use seems to be covered 'for the duration of operations ...'  . Then it becomes 'un-PD', but would be PD after completion if you erected it again! If the Planners notice I wonder if they could require you to take it down in order to re-erect it?

I had that discussion with the planners.  I wanted a static caravan to live in during the build but wanted to retain it as a garden outbuilding after the build.  Planners wanted it there on temporary PP to be removed after occupying the house.

 

When I pointed out to the planners on completion day, I could remove it from the site, then immediately replace it and it would be permitted development they removed the "must be removed" clause.

[Leigh0403]

3 hours ago, kandgmitchell said:

Assuming you have planning permission for your new build then refer the planners to this part of the Town and Country Planning ( General Permitted Development)(England) Order 2015 to be found in Schedule 2 which lists permitted development rights....

 

PART 4Temporary buildings and uses

Class A – temporary buildings and structures

Permitted development

A.  The provision on land of buildings, moveable structures, works, plant or machinery required temporarily in connection with and for the duration of operations being or to be carried out on, in, under or over that land or on land adjoining that land.

Development not permitted

A.1  Development is not permitted by Class A if—

(a)the operations referred to are mining operations, or

(b)planning permission is required for those operations but is not granted or deemed to be granted.

 

 

Yes I do have planning already and this is what I thought when I’ve been doing my research 

[Leigh0403]

42 minutes ago, DevilDamo said:

Does the outbuilding not meet the PD requirements?

I haven’t built the house yet so have no PD rights yet 

[Leigh0403]

21 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I had that discussion with the planners.  I wanted a static caravan to live in during the build but wanted to retain it as a garden outbuilding after the build.  Planners wanted it there on temporary PP to be removed after occupying the house.

 

When I pointed out to the planners on completion day, I could remove it from the site, then immediately replace it and it would be permitted development they removed the "must be removed" clause.

it’s crazy isn’t it 

[DevilDamo]

28 minutes ago, Leigh0403 said:

I haven’t built the house yet so have no PD rights yet 

In which case the outbuilding requires Planning. Assume no outbuilding was indicated on the main approval, which you could use to submit a Variation of Condition application?

[kandgmitchell]

We don't know what materials this outbuilding is built from but if it is being used for storage and welfare during the house build it would fall under Part 4 Class A during the build. Note the PD only refers to "buildings", which from the limited information we have appears to describe the OP's structure.  It is at the end of the build when works are complete that the PD under that Part would cease. At that stage ( again assuming the normal domestic PD rights are not removed) then one would argue that if it now satisfied the criteria for residential outbuildings there would be little liklehood of the planners going down the enforcement route.

 

But in the short term the OP should explain to the planners that in response to the complaint made by the third party, that the outbuilding is needed in connection with building operations on the site for a scheme that has planning approval and thus is PD under Part 4 Class A. That should be sufficient to put the matter to bed for the length of the build. By the end of the project the complainant may have moved, died, joined the army or just got used to the building being there. Deal with it then.

[Leigh0403]

3 minutes ago, kandgmitchell said:

We don't know what materials this outbuilding is built from but if it is being used for storage and welfare during the house build it would fall under Part 4 Class A during the build. Note the PD only refers to "buildings", which from the limited information we have appears to describe the OP's structure.  It is at the end of the build when works are complete that the PD under that Part would cease. At that stage ( again assuming the normal domestic PD rights are not removed) then one would argue that if it now satisfied the criteria for residential outbuildings there would be little liklehood of the planners going down the enforcement route.

 

But in the short term the OP should explain to the planners that in response to the complaint made by the third party, that the outbuilding is needed in connection with building operations on the site for a scheme that has planning approval and thus is PD under Part 4 Class A. That should be sufficient to put the matter to bed for the length of the build. By the end of the project the complainant may have moved, died, joined the army or just got used to the building being there. Deal with it then.

Hi it is a prefabricated building on a concrete base it is bolted down so could easily be moved if needed . The part that worries me is that it looks nice. Apparently it says that if a building looks permanent they can ask you to remove it. So does that mean it’s ok to have scrap temporary unit but not a nice one 

[Leigh0403]

35 minutes ago, DevilDamo said:

In which case the outbuilding requires Planning. Assume no outbuilding was indicated on the main approval, which you could use to submit a Variation of Condition application?

But does it if it’s temporary? 

[DevilDamo]

8 minutes ago, Leigh0403 said:

But does it if it’s temporary? 

If the existing house has been demolished, what PD rights are you trying to benefit from? PD rights cease to exist upon the demolition of a building.

[DevilDamo]

Having read more into it, it appears you don’t need an existing building to benefit from those temporary PD rights.

 

Is this outbuilding solely connected to the construction of the new dwelling and is not a storage container of furniture (for example) from the demolished dwelling?

[Leigh0403]

2 hours ago, DevilDamo said:

If the existing house has been demolished, what PD rights are you trying to benefit from? PD rights cease to exist upon the demolition of a building.

It hasn’t i bough a piece of land and am building a house 

[Temp]

14 hours ago, Leigh0403 said:

Hi everyone,

So I have built an outbuilding which is going to act as storage and welfare facilities whilst we build our new build. The council this morning have called saying they think we may need planning they have had a complaint. Can this not be used as a temporary building for now? Then could I keep it under PD rights once built?

 

Temporary buildings for construction site workers and storage are addressed under Schedule 2, Part 4, Class A of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015 (GPDO) but there are conditions...

Quote

 

Permitted development

 

A.  The provision on land of buildings, moveable structures, works, plant or machinery required temporarily in connection with and for the duration of operations being or to be carried out on, in, under or over that land or on land adjoining that land.

 

Development not permitted

 

A.1  Development is not permitted by Class A if—

 

(a)the operations referred to are mining operations, or

 

(b)planning permission is required for those operations but is not granted or deemed to be granted.

 

Conditions

 

A.2  Development is permitted by Class A subject to the conditions that, when the operations have been carried out—

 

(a)any building, structure, works, plant or machinery permitted by Class A is removed, and

 

(b)any adjoining land on which development permitted by Class A has been carried out is, as soon as reasonably practicable, reinstated to its condition before that development was carried out.

 

 

You could try quoting that at them.  Chances are the neighbiur will complain again when you finish building and don't remove them. If they do I would then try claiming they are Permitted Development. 

 

[Dave Jones]

13 hours ago, Tony L said:

Also consider that PP is often granted with a condition that the property will no longer have PD rights.

 

 

 

this has found to be unlawful when appealed. If you have this condition, ask for it to be removed. if they refuse appeal it (its free) and claim full costs.

[Dave Jones]

19 hours ago, Leigh0403 said:

Hi everyone,

So I have built an outbuilding which is going to act as storage and welfare facilities whilst we build our new build. The council this morning have called saying they think we may need planning they have had a complaint. Can this not be used as a temporary building for now? Then could I keep it under PD rights once built?

 

when was the outbuilding constructed ?

[kandgmitchell]

Remember that permitted development rights exist across a wide range of developments not just dwelling houses. A right may exist under another part of Schedule 2 not just Part 1 which covers development within the curtilage of a dwelling house. Part 2 covers minor development, so that's where you find the right to erect a fence on any land not just dwellings. Part 3 is for various changes of use of land and buildings and Part 4 is what the OP needs - temporary uses. You have a right to erect buildings used in connection with other approved works no matter how attractive that building may be. There may be an issue if the outbuilding is erected and then the main works do not start for years but it is not unreasonable to be sorting enabling works such as erecting welfare facilities in advance of building on the site. One of the first things most sites start with are storage, welfare and office buildings.

 

OP just engage with the planners (probably an enforcement officer rather than a planner) point out that this building is a temporary structure for use with the house build and this should go away for at least the length of the build. By the time you have finished the house, if the building still meets what will be then the Part 1 requirements for outbuildings I cannot imagine that you will hear anymore about it.

[Tony L]

12 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

 

this has found to be unlawful when appealed. If you have this condition, ask for it to be removed. if they refuse appeal it (its free) and claim full costs.

 

Interesting.  Thanks, I didn't know that.  It wasn't one of my conditions, but they did put this in next door's conditions (for PP to demolish & rebuild - same as me).