What's the case for not getting an ASHP?

[Roger440]

10 hours ago, JamesPa said:

80A is surely enough for your ashp, EV and domestic needs, even 60A could be made to work.  If you need more for non/abnormal domestic purposes it's right that you should pay.

 

Earlier on this thread you used the DNO position to justify your statement that government isn't serious about carbon reduction.  Was that really a fair statement given what you have subsequently told us about your use?

 

Theres a lot more reasons as i mentioned ealier why its clear government isnt serious.

 

But that aside, what you are suggesting is if someone needs more power than the average, then carbon reduction doesnt matter? That nonsensical. Power is being consumed by all sorts of people and business, in varying quantities.

 

Surely the objective is to decarbonise as much as possible. Indeed, prioritising those using more than average will yield a greater result.

[Dillsue]

10 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

Lets be clear, NG havent "assesed" my needs.  I havent supplied anything like enough info for them to do so, as is detailed in their own policy document. The answer is no, regardless of the needs or otherwise. Because theres only 2 properties on the transformer. This situation would apppear to trump all other policies.

 

But  i guess on the basis you decribe, the moral of the story, is dont be honest. Sadly, this all started before ENA started doing their 

 

As i said, im clearly not going to get a supply upgrade, so burning oil and diesel remains the only affordable route forward. Which i still think is bonkers. But there we have it. On the upside it gives me complete independance.

NGs assessment can be as simple as them saying "you're on a 60A supply now so a 33% increase to 80A will be enough to cover a typical house wanting to add a heat pump". It could also be a quick look on Google earth to see that your not living in a stately home. It doesn't have to be a bespoke survey of your house which is done by your installer when applying for an LCT connection. If your installer does that and shows you need the full 23kva for the house then you've got an argument for the full 23kva.

 

You can only really comment on and challenge NGs policy if you've done the LCT application to show the house needs more than 80 amp, and then been rejected.

[JamesPa]

10 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

But that aside, what you are suggesting is if someone needs more power than the average, then carbon reduction doesnt matter? That nonsensical. Power is being consumed by all sorts of people and business, in varying quantities.

No of course not.  But neither should we all pay for their indulgences.  

 

The reason you need more than a normal domestic load is because of your unusual needs, not because of a heat pump.  You have chosen to prioritise the former.

 

In an ideal world the dno would charge you more for your unusual needs whether or not you need an upgrade, then do the upgrade to support the heat pump as well foc.  But that gets very complex, it's a niche case, so it's unlikely to make sense overall even if it does in your case.  One possible solution is probably the French one where you tarrif depends on peak consumption, but doubtless that also creates anomalies.

 

You can't expect the whole world to be designed around your niche circumstance.  You will have to live with the fact that your choice to have unusually high needs and not to be willing to pay for the supply required means your options are now limited.

 

[sharpener]

12 hours ago, Roger440 said:

I follow the logic.

 

However, that would then mean finding a home for a rather larger tank somewhere. Which in what is a pretty small house isnt all that easy.

 

But clearly, its a massive load i could well do without.

 

If you install a heat pump you will have to find a home for a hot water cylinder anyway bc it is very unlikely you will need an HP big enough to provide "instant" water heating. They can go in the loft if necessary.

 

Then you can get rid of the electric shower for the cost of plumbing in an ordinary mixer shower - which will be small compared with the rest of the project.

 

12 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

Batteries are expensive. I hadnt planned on fitting any. Though i have a possible loose plan to use my forklift batteries. But thats all a bit "non standard" and im not sure im clever enough to make that work.

 

If you have already got forklift batteries (what chemistry?) and they are or can be wired for 48V then you can use them with a Victron inverter and probably many others. The 8kVA Multiplus is probably the one to get, it has 15kVA surge capacity ? for 2mins? and 100A (23kW) passthrough capability. Charged overnight at cheap rate this would enable you to timeshift/arbitrage your aqua blasting usage as well as providing grid reinforcement.

[-rick-]

Though forklift batteries are a long way away from being ideal for this sort of system. You'll get much less out of them than an equivalent modern LFP pack per charge and they will degrade more quickly. So if used very occasionally and free thats fine but don't plan on using them for grid arbitrage or daily cycling.

[-rick-]

12 hours ago, Roger440 said:

But that aside, what you are suggesting is if someone needs more power than the average, then carbon reduction doesnt matter? That nonsensical. Power is being consumed by all sorts of people and business, in varying quantities.

 

In a world where funds are limited and we have to make choices about how to spend them it just makes far more sense to spend 20k upgrading 10 houses to support heatpumps vs gas (or oil) vs upgrading one hobbyist who needs a large amount of power occasionally. The carbon emissions from your diesel compressor will be relatively tiny compared to those saved from 10 houses given you only use it occasionally.

 

I'd hazard a guess that if you used your compressor a lot the fuel bills would be large enough to make the 20k fee look like a good deal.

Edited Wednesday at 09:56 by -rick-

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, sharpener said:

 

If you install a heat pump you will have to find a home for a hot water cylinder anyway bc it is very unlikely you will need an HP big enough to provide "instant" water heating. They can go in the loft if necessary.

 

Then you can get rid of the electric shower for the cost of plumbing in an ordinary mixer shower - which will be small compared with the rest of the project.

 

 

If you have already got forklift batteries (what chemistry?) and they are or can be wired for 48V then you can use them with a Victron inverter and probably many others. The 8kVA Multiplus is probably the one to get, it has 15kVA surge capacity ? for 2mins? and 100A (23kW) passthrough capability. Charged overnight at cheap rate this would enable you to timeshift/arbitrage your aqua blasting usage as well as providing grid reinforcement.

 

They are lead acid, so ricks comments apply. 

[Roger440]

8 hours ago, Dillsue said:

NGs assessment can be as simple as them saying "you're on a 60A supply now so a 33% increase to 80A will be enough to cover a typical house wanting to add a heat pump". It could also be a quick look on Google earth to see that your not living in a stately home. It doesn't have to be a bespoke survey of your house which is done by your installer when applying for an LCT connection. If your installer does that and shows you need the full 23kva for the house then you've got an argument for the full 23kva.

 

You can only really comment on and challenge NGs policy if you've done the LCT application to show the house needs more than 80 amp, and then been rejected.

 

Ill say again, the refusal was because of there only being 2 houses. Had there been 3, they have confirmed that much of the cost would be taken by them. They would have installed a three phase transformer, which would enable load balancing.

 

Even if i had a requirement for 23kva, its still a no. Only 2 houses = no. Unless i want to pay, and then the load balancing issue magically disappears. Amazing what cash can do......

 

All other arguments are secondary. No point making an application. Its still no. It will always be a no while there are only 2 houses. Theres zero chance of there being 3.

[JamesPa]

10 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Amazing what cash can do......

Pay for the necessary infrastructure to support your unusual load?

[Roger440]

9 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Pay for the necessary infrastructure to support your unusual load?

Did you read what i said? Load balancing is so important, but isnt if i pay some money. 

 

The decision about what i can have is actually based around the number of houses on the transformer. As ive explained. Again. If there were three houses i could have my supply, irrespective of my "unusual load". Because they dont care about the unusual load. Thats not the reason for rejection.

 

For some reason, you are not getting it?

[saveasteading]

33 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

For some reason, you are not getting it?

Neither am I then. @JamesPa says your money goes to pay towards the infrastructure.  That is my understanding too.

I have had this.

1. We had single phase from a pole, and asked for 3 phase. "That will be £15k please because we have to change the transformer." Our choice....  single phase will do.

2. Our client needs loads of power for his new artic maintenance depot.  "We don't have enough power available so it will cost £300k for a new transformer at roadside". Clients choice... build it here and pay, or go elsewhere.

 

That seems simple and fair unless they then take power off it elsewhere, but then you ask for a rebate.

 

Am I not getting it?

I think I will duck out of this now anyway.

 

 

[JamesPa]

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

Did you read what i said? Load balancing is so important, but isnt if i pay some money. 

 

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

For some reason, you are not getting it?

How do you know that the money isn't to pay for infrastructure upgrade.  I'm not a power engineer, but I can think conceptually of  two ways to spend the money and solve the load balancing problem namely:

 

Fit a 3 phase transformer (and any necessary supply from the next station up the line) and insist you run split your load between at least two of the phases or

 

Retain single phase but upgrade the return (neutral) cable to the next splitting point so the phase imbalance is statistically diluted and the cable loss reduced.

 

There are probably other ways.

 

Did you actually confirm that the figure you were quoted involved NO infrastructure upgrade at all?

 

Even if there is no infrastructure upgrade then your abnormal load still costs the rest of us money unless you contribute, because the phase imbalance results in network losses which we all pay for.  It could be that they take a view on that but charge it as a one off fee.

 

I'm sorry but the bottom line, which I know you don't like, is that you have an abnormal requirement and so you should pay an abnormal fee, which is what you are asked to do.

Edited Wednesday at 18:53 by JamesPa

[Gus Potter]

On 25/08/2025 at 14:44, Roger440 said:

The bit missing here is i also have a workshop with demands as well. 

 

Primarily a compressor, which whilst it wont get used every day by any means is going to be 7-10kw affair. And a load of other much smaller stuff.

 

I didnt make an application as they said no new connections over 80A regardless. The chap has been very helpful in fairness, but thats the rules.

 

Battery isnt really going to fly as the compressor load is so big. 

 

The reality is, the requirement is infrequent, (its a hobby not a business)  a few days a month max, so a genset to drive it is the most cost effective solution.  Also has the benefit of not needing to lay a new, bigger cable to the workshop. And possibly have it completely stand alone, so no other electrical work required. Leaving the existing 60 amp supply to do "normal" domestic stuff. Though ill still need to step up to 80A if i get a HP as the shower and cooker are both electric at 30A each and occasionally are used at the same time.

Hi Roger. 

 

I've not read the full thread here but can see your dilemma. 

 

Maybe if I make a miss step @ProDave will correct me but I'm thinking can we find a pragmatic solution. 

 

So say you have a nominal 80 amp DNO supply. To get the min kVa we look at the min voltage supplied by the leccy board. 216.2 volts x 80 amps / 1000 = 17.296 kVa. The maximum would be when the voltage is at it's highest 253 volts. So here we could draw 253.0 * 80 / 1000 = 20.24 kVa. 

 

Now as understand the main fuse is not there to protect you, rather it's there to protect the DNO infrastructure. A pal of mine (Electrical Engineer) told me that the incoming cable actually has a short term load capacity of a lot more. For the cable to fail it needs to heat up first.. but is often buiried in soil which keeps it cool.

 

So bearing that in mind we need to look at the type of fuse that the leccy board provide. These tend to be sand fuses and there is a table in BS 7671 that tells us how long a sand fuse takes to fail depending on the load. This table is hard to find mind you. 

 

Now from time to time you may draw 80 amps or potentially a lot more if you have short surge.. that is how sand fuses work.. if they blow at the slightest whiff of an over current then the leccy board would be out to houses all the time. 

 

The simple way is to install a main breaker on your side that cuts off if you exceed that 80 amp load.  Now if you go and research load diversity and apply a bit of common sense when using stuff then I think you'll find that you can work around this and still run all the things you want on an 80 amp supply. 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 19:49 by Gus Potter
Typos

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, JamesPa said:

 

How do you know that the money isn't to pay for infrastructure upgrade.  I'm not a power engineer, but I can think conceptually of  two ways to spend the money and solve the load balancing problem namely:

 

Fit a 3 phase transformer (and any necessary supply from the next station up the line) and insist you run split your load between at least two of the phases or

 

Retain single phase but upgrade the return (neutral) cable to the next splitting point so the phase imbalance is statistically diluted and the cable loss reduced.

 

There are probably other ways.

 

Did you actually confirm that the figure you were quoted involved NO infrastructure upgrade at all?

 

Even if there is no infrastructure upgrade then your abnormal load still costs the rest of us money unless you contribute, because the phase imbalance results in network losses which we all pay for.  It could be that they take a view on that but charge it as a one off fee.

 

I'm sorry but the bottom line, which I know you don't like, is that you have an abnormal requirement and so you should pay an abnormal fee, which is what you are asked to do.

 

Im not really sure how many times i can say the same thing. They confirmed, had there been 3 properties not 2, they would have given me a 3  phase supply for a nominal cost. 

 

So, again, the reason i cannot have a supply at a nominal, lets call it a sensible cost, is because of the number of properties.

 

With 3 properties they were prepared to install 3 phase at their cost.

 

You argument that its abnormal isnt relevant. My requirement would be the same if there were 3 houses. Then i wouldnt have to pay.

 

Not sure i see much point in further debate as you seem to have latched on to this abnormal load thing, when thats actually got nothing to do with the reasons i find myself where i am.

[Roger440]

32 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

Hi Roger. 

 

I've not read the full thread here but can see your dilemma. 

 

Maybe if I make a miss step @ProDave will correct me but I'm thinking can we find a pragmatic solution. 

 

So say you have a nominal 80 amp DNO supply. To get the min kVa we look at the min voltage supplied by the leccy board. 216.2 volts x 80 amps / 1000 = 17.296 kVa. The maximum would be when the voltage is at it's highest 253 volts. So here we could draw 253.0 * 80 / 1000 = 20.24 kVa. 

 

Now as understand the main fuse is not there to protect you, rather it's there to protect the DNO infrastructure. A pal of mine (Electrical Engineer) told me that the incoming cable actually has a short term load capacity of a lot more. For the cable to fail it needs to heat up first.. but is often buiried in soil which keeps it cool.

 

So bearing that in mind we need to look at the type of fuse that the leccy board provide. These tend to be sand fuses and there is a table in BS 7671 that tells us how long a sand fuse takes to fail depending on the load. This table is hard to find mind you. 

 

Now from time to time you may draw 80 amps or potentially a lot more if you have short surge.. that is how sand fuses work.. if they blow at the slightest whiff of an over current then the leccy board would be out to houses all the time. 

 

The simple way is to install a main breaker on your side that cuts off if you exceed that 80 amp load.  Now if you go and research load diversity and apply a bit of common sense when using stuff then I think you'll find that you can work around this and still run all the things you want on an 80 amp supply. 

 

 

Thanks Gus.

 

I understand diversity. At the 60 amps i have its not going to fly. At 80 amp, is marginal at best.

 

You may not have seen, but the big loads are cooker, 30amp, electric shower, 30 amp, compressor circa 40amp. Plus everything else that one normally has.

 

Add a HP, and possible EV charger (though i dont need one now) and you can see i might have an issue. Yes, apply diversity, but theres a limit to that.

 

I think the debate has run its course to be honest. My choices are, stump up the big numbers, or take the low cost upgrade to 80 amp, and figure out a means of generating power on demand if / when i run out of capacity.

 

You suggestion of an 80 amp breaker my side is a good idea as it will let me know when im at the limit before it causes any real issues. Ive got to move the consumer unit, so ideal time to do that.

[Gus Potter]

10 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

They confirmed, had there been 3 properties not 2, they would have given me a 3  phase supply for a nominal cost. 

There are ten pages to this thread Roger. Can you describe what is upstream of your connection? Don't forget that nothing with the leccy board is transparent and often is driven by some accountant rather than engineering knowledge. 

 

In some ways it's worth trying to see it from the leccy boards point and how diversity works at their end.

 

If you can put yourself in their shoes and "see it" the way they do then you'll be in a stronger postition as that will let you get past the admin / accountant and talk to one of their engineers who will probably sort this out in half an hour for you. 

 

 

[Gus Potter]

@Roger440 threads are overlapping you beat me too it!. 

[Gus Potter]

13 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

You suggestion of an 80 amp breaker my side is a good idea as it will let me know when im at the limit before it causes any real issues. Ive got to move the consumer unit, so ideal time to do that.

Good approach, let pragmatism prevail and march on!

Edited Wednesday at 20:30 by Gus Potter

[Roger440]

33 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

There are ten pages to this thread Roger. Can you describe what is upstream of your connection? Don't forget that nothing with the leccy board is transparent and often is driven by some accountant rather than engineering knowledge. 

 

In some ways it's worth trying to see it from the leccy boards point and how diversity works at their end.

 

If you can put yourself in their shoes and "see it" the way they do then you'll be in a stronger postition as that will let you get past the admin / accountant and talk to one of their engineers who will probably sort this out in half an hour for you. 

 

 

 

Ive been talking directy to the engineers. That a good thing about National Grid. You get to talk to sensible people, not admin people.

 

In summary. 2 properties connected to a single phase transformer on a pole in my field, connected to the 11kv. Only circa 6 properties on the leg.  As far as i know it terminates a couple of miles away.

[Gus Potter]

21 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

connected to the 11kv.

So if you go over the score and blow the transformer up.. you'll get a bill for it but the chances are no one will get hurt, you won't cut off the old folks home down the road and so on. 

 

Incedentally animals are very aware of electircity, that's why cows lie down in a thunderstorm. 

Edited Wednesday at 21:22 by Gus Potter

[dpmiller]

why not just use as much lekky as you want, til something blows. How can they blame *you* if there are another couple of houses on the pole...

[JamesPa]

10 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

You argument that its abnormal isnt relevant. My requirement would be the same if there were 3 houses. Then i wouldnt have to pay.

 

Not sure i see much point in further debate as you seem to have latched on to this abnormal load thing, when thats actually got nothing to do with the reasons i find myself where i am.

I agree there is little point in continuing the debate because you appear to think that a utility that we all pay for should provide infrastructure to support what you want free of charge to you, so the rest of us have to pay, even though your requirement is out of the ordinary. 

 

Like it or not its your load that is abnormal and it's entirely irrelevant to the argument that there are some hypothetical circumstances in which the dno could accommodate you cheaply.  Those circumstances don't exist.  What does exist is your abnormal load and the rest of us shouldn't have to pay for it.

Hopefully one of the suggestions others are making will work.

Edited Thursday at 06:48 by JamesPa

[Dillsue]

51 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

why not just use as much lekky as you want, til something blows. How can they blame *you* if there are another couple of houses on the pole...

The thing that will blow is the service fuse on the house incomer so Roger will loose all power until the DNO comes out to replace the fuse. Given the property history that may be charged for but subsequent replacements would/should be charged for. If they aren't charged to the householder then you and I will pay for the call outs.

[JamesPa]

25 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

you and I will pay for the call outs

... Which, if I follow through on the logic above, is apparently entirely fair, because they wouldn't have charged Roger as much for the infrastructure upgrade needed to support his load had there been an additional house on the pole.

Edited Thursday at 06:52 by JamesPa

[JohnMo]

This thread has gone a tangent - who will fix @Roger440 rabbit