Loose wire - bullet dodged.

[Russdl]

During my mid year service of the house it turns out that the second Willis Heater we hardly ever use doesn’t work anyway. After a bit of investigation it became pretty clear why that was.
 

The neutral from the Willis Heaters fused spur into the contactor was trying to catch fire, it had actually melted and stuck to the outer casing of the junction box. 

The neutral was in the right hand No.3 terminal - kinda. 
 

I found that pretty disturbing, especially as there was no indication of when this had happened (nothing tripped off, no smoke alarm) or how long ago it happened. 
 

On closer inspection I think it’s clear what has happened, the terminal screw seems to be cross threaded so I guess it felt like it was done up tight but clearly it wasn’t. 
 

 

Stuff clearly needs replacing, like the contactor and the Wago. 
 

The obviously burnt twin and earth needs replacing, can I just cut out the burnt sections and splice in new cable with these? 

 

 

Or should I replace the whole length to the fused spur?

 

The T&E appearing above the contactor is directly from the distribution board and looks slightly heat damaged, I guess that all needs replacing as well?

As a side note, I’m going to be sourcing another smoke detector for this area. There is a smoke detector in the room and also an MVHR extract. The problem is with the relative positions the MVHR extract will effectively prevent any air from the area of the distribution board passing over the smoke detector. 

Edited June 27 by Russdl
Changed the first photo

[Kelvin]

If you can replace the whole length why wouldn’t you do that? 

[Russdl]

Good point, I’ve not had a good look at what that would entail, replacing the T&E from the contactor to the fused spur, but I suspect I could do that with relative ease. 

[ProDave]

I would not hesitate having a junction inside the contactor box.

 

Always give new terminations a tug to see if they are really tight.  I have found MK sockets especially bad at having poor binding screws that feel tight before the screw even touches the wire, yet plenty of people still think they are the best.

[Russdl]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

 

I would not hesitate having a junction inside the contactor box

 

Just so I’m clear on that advice you say the Wago would be fine?

 

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

Always give new terminations a tug to see if they are really tight

I do. But I guess the electrician that did the original install didn’t.
 

However tugging upwards against the distribution board would have been difficult I guess. 

[BotusBuild]

If you are replacing the damaged contactor (bad screw) - you're doing that! - then replace the whole T&E at the same time.

 

IMHO

[Russdl]

That’s what I’m here for, “HO’s”.  
 

I’m no electrician so I’m seeking advice. 
 

I’m definitely going to replace the contactor, I’ve no idea how damaged that is internally but it has most definitely got very hot and, on balance, it would seem that the whole length of T&E should be replaced as well, so I’ll do that. 

[BotusBuild]

3 hours ago, Russdl said:

I’m no electrician

Don't be too afraid.

Photograph what you are going to replace, particularly connections.

Turn everything off, then check nothing is live.

Replace the cable.

Replace the connector.

Make the connections (refer ro earlier photos)

Tighten and tug test.

 

Apply volts.

 

You got this

[Russdl]

Thanks 🤣.
 

Im not afraid, I can’t do any worse than the professional that went before me! I just want to ensure that any rectification/replacement I do is done according to best practice. 

[Russdl]

That contactor did get really hot. How come nothing tripped off? Is that indicative of other problems?

 

 

T&E from the contactor to the Willis heater switch easily removed. 
~~~

The terminal screw is at such a jaunty angle I can’t even get a screwdriver on it. The electrician must have been aware what was happening. Surely?

 

Edited Tuesday at 11:30 by Russdl
Added the second photo.

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, Russdl said:

That contactor did get really hot. How come nothing tripped off? Is that indicative of other problems?

 

 

T&E from the contactor to the Willis heater switch easily removed. 
~~~

The terminal screw is at such a jaunty angle I can’t even get a screwdriver on it. The electrician must have been aware what was happening. Surely?

 

The contactor and wire got hot because the connection was not secure so created a resistance.  Current passing through a resistance creates heat.  The total current flowing would be less than if the connection was perfect so no chance of over current trip operating.  The current still flowed Live to Neutral so no chance of tripping an RCD.

 

The only thing that might have detected that is an Arc Fault Detection Device.  Their uses has been discussed but not presently a requirement.  Lots of th discussion has been on false trips, i.e. they are not regarded as reliable devices.

 

Normally one's nose detects these things, if you smell and odd smell go looking for it's source.

[Russdl]

Thanks for that detail Dave, mildly alarming though it is. I’ll definitely be in the market for an electronic nose to sniff out any future problems. 
 

As nothing trips out, what would have made the connection fail in the end? Is it just a build up of crud on the  neutral wire?

 

[Russdl]

I thought I’d try and tidy up the numerous cables in and around the contactor whilst I await the arrival of the replacement. 
 

It looks like the electrician used a machine gun to attach a couple of back boxes to the plasterboard during the original installation and then used some bloody great big screws to attach the junction box. At 70mm those screws are just the right length to go straight into the airtight layer. Nice.

 

None of the above is the end of the world but on top

of the poor/dangerous contactor installation it is mildly annoying. 
 

 

Anyway, all the heat damaged T&E is now replaced so I’m pleased about that. 

[Russdl]

I’m amazed and confused. I’ve just removed the good contactor and was stunned to find the neutral for the Willis heater did not appear to be connected at all, and this is the one we normally use. 
 

 

I thought I may have dislodged it but looking back at a photo from a week or so ago, despite the shadow I think it’s fairly clear to see that the neutral is not properly inserted into the terminal. 
 

 

How on earth did this Willis heater work?
 

I guess the neutral must have been just inside the terminal and just tight enough to stop overheating but not tight enough to stop it coming out completely when I removed the contactor?

[ProDave]

4 hours ago, Russdl said:

It looks like the electrician used a machine gun to attach a couple of back boxes to the plasterboard during the original installation and then used some bloody great big screws to attach the junction box. At 70mm those screws are just the right length to go straight into the airtight layer. Nice.

 

The holes are where he went probing to try and find a stud, and the long screws are because he didn't have any plasterboard fixings.  All speculation of course.

[Onoff]

That folded back neutral, sat against the terminal...

 

 

Can't get much "looser" than that. The epitome of a high resistance joint. I would have expected to see it seriously burnt and crispy. But it's not...doesn't add up. 

 

I had some MK light switches that were terrible for binding up. 

 

 

[Russdl]

9 minutes ago, Onoff said:

I would have expected to see it seriously burnt and crispy. But it's not...doesn't add up.

Likewise, I’m confused. 
 

Something I hadn’t spotted before, in the first picture I posted on this thread ⬆️ where I was concerned with the overheating on the right hand contactor you can clearly see the light blue neutral into the left hand contactor is definitely not properly inserted. 
 

I can’t understand how the Willis heater was working and, as you say, why that left hand neutral wasn’t all burnt and crispy like the right hand neutral?

[dpmiller]

are you sure the contactors aren't the "other" way round, or their stats set so that the "wrong" one is doing the heavy lifting?

[Russdl]

No, I’ve replaced the obviously burn T&E and that ends up at the right hand Willis heater that wasn’t working. 

[Russdl]

I’ve got the new contactor now but before I start putting it all back together again is it ok that the top of the contactor junction box (for want of a better name) has been cut out?  I was under the impression this shouldn’t happen.

 

 

This open end is mounted snug to the distribution board, so it’s not open to the elements/fingers etc. 

[Russdl]

Well it’s all back together and working, nothing has gone bang and nothing (apart from the Willis heaters!) is getting hot. 
 

I think I’ll chalk that up as a good result. 
~~~

I’ll keep hold of these two in case the installer or his boss wants them. 
 

 

[Russdl]

I’ve just pulled the damaged contactor apart, the burnt terminal is done up as tight as a tight thing - there is no way there was ever a cable clamped in there. It must have just been wedged along side or something?
 

The red arrow is pointing at the heat damaged terminal (obviously!!) in the fully closed position, the green arrow at a fully open terminal (with only minor heat damaged). 
 

 

 

I can’t believe this, I can’t get my head around how a professional electrican could leave wiring in such a dangerous condition. 

[ProDave]

6 hours ago, Russdl said:

 

I can’t believe this, I can’t get my head around how a professional electrican could leave wiring in such a dangerous condition. 

The highlighted word is the important one.  Judging by the way he butchered your wall I am not sure that word applied here?

[Russdl]

The original electrian sourced by the M&E contractor was a top notch professional I would say. When the original electrician became unavailable the seemingly less professional replacement was parachuted in. On the face of it you wouldn’t know the difference, under the covers the difference is more obvious. 
 

Thanks to the wonders of modern technology (phone cameras, text messages, emails, site diary etc) I know  exactly when this wiring was done and who did it. Just looking at the wiring in the distribution board you can tell this wiring was done by a different electrician.  The original electrician’s wiring was incredibly neat and ordered, the replacement electrician’s work not so much. 
 

Perhaps he wasn’t fully qualified? It never crossed my mind to ask. 

[Nickfromwales]

I worked on a project, once. Similar circumstances, almost god damn identical to be completely frank........anyways.

 

On said project, the electrician that was "parachuted in" had actually worked on the project all the way through from day 1, sourced and instructed by the 'professional'; the professional was paid and employed by the M&E contractor as the lead electrician on the project, and the M&E contractor was me.

 

Anyways, in a completely unrelated series of events......pure coincidence here folks..........

 

We arrived at a point where 2nd fix of the kitchen came around, where the client still had not informed me, prior to our planned arrival on a Saturday morning, that they had changed the 2x 20a ovens to one huge 6kw double-height single unit, eg without having the courtesy or give a f4ck of informing us beforehand, knowing that we were arriving on a weekend to execute the works. 🤦‍♂️

 

For completeness, the client/tosser had previously supplied me with an electrical schematic for me to price the M&E works against, generated by himself. I used this document as the working revision for us to execute the 1st fix electrics to, fully understanding that the responsibility here was always on them as the designer to inform us of any additions or alterations; I was employed to provide an electrical installation, sympathetic to this design, which would meet current regs, only.

 

I, my parachute guy, and my professional other, supported throughout with ideas for improvements, and did so without additional reward for those efforts, done as a courtesy that I felt I had to extend to assist said tosser with filling in the gaps in his ignorance limited understanding of what was required, possible, or would offer the best outcome; I did so enthusiastically and at every opportunity, providing huge amounts of advice to him that I of course routinely otherwise charged for, eg providing detailed information to someone who is not an electrician or an electrical designer so they can complete the work with an informed perspective, to get the very best outcome, when they should have been paying someone to do so on their behalf. Not to mention that all his faux pas stood between us and the finish line, and I was working on price, so I didn't have much choice here.....

 

 

 

 

There's more, so if anyone needs the loo, I suggest you go now  

 

 

 

So......

At this point, in the overall M&E scheme, the CU had now already been fully wired, by the (fully qualified) "parachute" electrician and absolutely NOT by the professional, and he had done a neat and wonderful job of it. All good sparkies are OCD freaks, and wiring fuse boards is something you need to leave them alone to do, by themselves, with a supply of tissues. I personally inspected these completed works (I also have WhatsApp pics / texts and all that horse-shit, if anyone wants to see the finished article, eg before we had to go back in there under duress on a weekend to change everything for the aforementioned tosser), and then I presented the works to the tosser, and the tosser agreed it was complete and satisfactory at the time of that handover. The works were done as per the remit from the tosser, and that book was closed, with ZERO need to open the cover of the CU ever again; the works were therefore completed as far as the agreed M&E scope of works were paid up for. No need at all to touch the CU ever again....

 

As most folk on here would fully appreciate and expect, if you (the client) decided to change your mind, which you lot know you love to do, be honest, you are fully entitled to do so, it's your house!! Agreed, however, a bit of "professional" courtesy here would be to inform the M&E contractor as and when, especially before they go and buy the originally agreed materials, book labour and hotels etc, and make their way a few hundred miles of travel to do the work (that you know they cannot do as you had changed everything ahead of their arrival)......demonstrating that you as a person have absolutely zero regard as to the consequences it would then have on others.

 

Another courtesy would be to expect to have to pay for the change in course, should it be agreed amicably that there is an identifiable cost impact to the M&E contractor/time delays etc. I very seldom charge for changes before works are executed, but always when we have done the work, and then have to re-do it. This usually gets facilitated in a more admirable fashion, via pre-arranged conversation, agreed extra time/materials costs to be met, and then the generation, presentation, (and acceptance) of a variation order, so the M&E contractor would have a robust mechanism to be suitably compensated for associated costs. Nothing worse than when it all gets dropped in your lap, unannounced, on a Saturday morning.

 

 

 

Popcorn time.......yes, there's even more......

 

 

 

Saturday morning, the 'parachute' electrician says to me "this isn't the oven we're supposed to be fitting, WTF", so I then stop my paid works to address the problem. Client (tosser-boy) then chirps up and looks a bit sheepish, odd because I was the only Welsh bloke in the room, and says "Oh, yea, I meant to say something about that but my mind took flight ✈️"...."can you make this right?". Great, thanks for that.

 

I told the client he would be responsible for the time/materials/expenses for these new and additional works (aka a variation order) to convert the feeds to the oven, and he smiled at me and agreed to those terms, so on good faith I then instructed my parachute electrician, even though perhaps he may not have been qualified, it never crossed my mind to ask, (lol), and said let's get on with it. Reasons to follow*

 

For context, we had already previously 1st fixed 2x 2.5mm T&E, 1 for each of the single ovens demonstrated in the clients 'design' remit, and had installed 2x 20a breakers (or whatever size they were) in the CU and made these live, accordingly. The cables were run, and the house had been plaster boarded, plastered, painted, and the kitchen fitted. Our task was, then, to find a way to remove the 2x 2.5mm T&E's and replace with 1x 6mm T&E, to suit the unannounced change of mind, all the way from the kitchen to the CU, including fully de-wiring the right hand bank of the CU and changing the 2 RCBO's in the CU to 1, which we did. I paid for all the materials, which we had to run around on Sat morning getting hold of before the merchants all closed.

 

Hence the aforementioned (similarity is frightening) less-than immaculate, re-shuffled cabling of the CU; not because we or the parachute electrician was lazy, but because we were put under duress to complete the works, by said tosser. It gets better (or worse, you decide). Explanation of why we were under duress to follow*

 

*Tosser then announces, "I know you are not responsible for the 2nd fix lighting (decorative pendants / LED's etc) in the kitchen diner, but my good friend is dying of cancer and we want to invite him to a party in the new house before the man upstairs calls him home, so it would be really appreciated if you two can double(treble)-down and do the unannounced alterations, and install all the lighting, including running around and getting stuff on a weekend, and get the kitchen diner 100% finished and functional so we can have a hootenanny here in his honour".

 

So I / We did, taking on even more unarranged and unagreed works in good faith.

 

So, now fast forward to me bringing up the subject of getting paid for the additional works.

 

As a decent chap, given the circumstances, people make mistakes, folk get cancer (I lost my dad to lung cancer at 59), I decided to not charge for my own time or the materials. To allow folk here to quantify, I asked for £1100 for a Saturday and Sunday, for me and my 'parachute' electrician, our evening meals, and hotel fees only, and my own time I offered to donate; I did this because I had an whole-of-house M&E project from the client already so I could allow some professional courtesy here of course as there was (I thought) still some 'meat on the bone'. So 2 guys, for 2.5 days (we travelled up the night before to be fresh to site at 08:00 on the Sat morning), with 2 nights in the hotel, plus fuel and other expenses etc for a total of £550 a day.

 

After the client, (I'm done saying tosser, you get the drift), gleefully examined all his functioning appliance's, under-cabinet LED's, and 2 sets of questionable pendant lights working as he wanted, we set off late on a Sunday night to go home for some rest, after working a marathon and pulling miracles out of our arses. One miracle was regards to how we would get the 3 lights over the dining table to work, seeing as the client had decided to self-install the MVHR with the fresh supply duct 2/3's of the way down the centreline of the dining table.........this required more delays and unpaid time to relocate the already 1st fixed lighting cables to allow for his f4ck up. Zero thanks for that too.....

 

So, it comes to getting paid the £1100............

 

"Nick, after you left I consulted with a 3rd party electrician, and it seems that you didn't need to do the alterations for the oven(s) or CU". I say, "WTF is that guy smoking?". Client suggests that, on a brand new electrical installation, his professional electrician/advisor says it would have been "OK" for us to have connected the 2x 2.5mm2 T&E's together and to have put them into a 45a cooker switch, and then take a local 6mm2 T&E to the 'new' oven. Therefore, he refused my entire cost of £1100. This may have been permissible on a historic installation, with a RAMS statement and logged info retained for information, but NOT for a new, yet to be signed off, electrical installation in the 21st century.

 

I've not been paid a penny to date for these additional works btw, and more, so now you know why I am saying "Tosser" a lot .

 

This is the same BS I had to put up with for electrics, plumbing, heating at this site all throughout my engagement. Ask the guys who were working there with me, even my lead electrician didn't want to go back there, and just put on a brave face when I asked him to just "go do what we need to do to get the f4ck out of there, please..".

 

This is stated so you all have a character reference for this 'individual'.

 

OK:

Talking hypothetically here btw, as some random username on the internet, and entirely unrelated discussion to this EXACT thread, let's say that I had an electrician working for me, and he didn't put a wire into a contactor all the way, because he hated every second of where he was working, and was getting continuously barked at, unable to focus on his work, then he would still be responsible for his actions; work well or don't work at all afaic. Shit happens, I live in the real world. However, in these circumstances the client would firstly need to approach the M&E contractor and offer an opportunity to correct any defective works, and then the works could be corrected amicably, the contractor could be given an opportunity to apologise and offer to compensate the client, but strangely this isn't what happened here, is it...........

 

Why would the client not do so? Maybe because of a dispute over the M&E contractor NOT GETTING PAID AS AGREED, so tosser-boy wouldn't dream of picking the phone up because he would be told to go f4ck himself.

 

Next.

 

In a house where plasterboard is used over a service void, I personally instruct my guys to fix surface mounted back boxes with 1"x8's, and to use every hole there is, so the box is fixed sufficiently and is there for life. You'll note there is only complaint of this being 'discovered', vs a report of the box coming off the wall. Furthermore, any screws which go into permanently fixed equipment, which go into a layer of airtight OSB, are completely OK to do so. If they are removed by A.N.Other at any time after the sign off, then it is the responsibility of the downstream guardian of the premises to ensure they then make good on the airtight sealing of said interruption. If the screws are put into the AT OSB and left there, then this if perfectly fine; note the client doesn't (sorry, didn't) mention any affect on the as built AT test result.........I'm sure it is documented here online somewhere by him, and it doesn't mention a fail.

 

To close.

I hate two-faced, spineless, keyboard warrior, disingenuous wankers. Them not paying their bill is inconsequential after you take into account those qualities, thus earning them the title of "tosser".

 

You decide folks.

 

Thanks for reading, and please tune in tomorrow for the next gripping instalment.

 

 

Disclaimer: I am a random person, anonymised on an internet forum, so should be completely ignored. The above factual statement should not be cross-referenced against the entirety of this thread in any way, shape or form, or its author (also anonymised).

 

Pure coincidence is what it is, probably.