TF Suppliers - Any Recent Experience?

[Stratman]

Hi

 

I have quotes from four TF suppliers, with installation included: Scotframe, Frame Technologies, Fleming Homes & MBC.  All have been very helpful and patient with me, updating quotes over a few years while we tuned the design to suit budget restrictions and while we got planning (a long story which I wont get into here).  Each seems to have an established system and good reputation.

 

I am now in a complete quandary about who to go with.  So I would just like to ask if anyone here has recent experience of any of my shortlist (positive or negative) that might sway me.

 

All thoughts will be gratefully recieved.

[Nickfromwales]

I've been on a good few of MBC's projects and can speak very highly of them, particularly the fact they are turnkey foundations / frame / airtight and insulated in one contract. From what I've seen it's a very stress-free process if the foundation and the frame come from the same supplier too.

 

If you disjoint these things by appointing them to different companies you will then have to wait for the foundation to be poured before the TF company will come to measure and make the frame to suit the slab, whereas MBC put the frame into production much sooner as it is they that are doing the slab too, from their own drawings.

 

Slabs done independently will need to meet tolerance criteria from follow on TF companies too, so you'll need to manage that yourself by being on it like Velcro, but a non-issue if it's the same company.

 

If you're technically minded and a bit hands on, not so much of an issue obvs, but something to seriously consider when costing the thing in its entirety as some cost is hidden value.

 

Some TF companies don't install service battens anywhere where there's no airtight membranes, so defo check the small print for big costs / differences or you may not end up with the saving you thought you were getting

[LnP]

I'm at a similar point with quotes from four timber frame companies but still wrestling with planning. I got quotes from Potton, Frame Technologies, Fleming and MBC. They all quote on different scopes so I made myself a spreadsheet to make sure I had a number against every element. Potton were the cheapest, Frame Technologies were +21%, Fleming were + 23% and MBC were + 35%. I got a price from MBC for their proprietary insulated raft foundation but did't include that in the cost comparison - I'm sure it's a high performing foundation but I wasn't sure it was value for money. Some of them offer an insulation package which includes the slab so I accounted for that in the comparison. If I include the MBC insulated slab foundation in the comparison and assume a strip foundation for the others at half the price, the numbers come out still with Potton the cheapest, Frame Technologies +17%, Fleming +19% and MBC +45%.

 

Another aspect to consider is what professional services they can provide - SAP calculation, BR drawings, `CDM principal designer etc.

 

As always, the cheapest price might not be the best value.  @Nickfromwales is right, with MBC you have fewer interfaces to manage, and there's value in that.

[Nickfromwales]

17 minutes ago, LnP said:

Another aspect to consider is what professional services they can provide - SAP calculation, BR drawings, `CDM principal designer etc.

Defo often gets next to no consideration. Great point to add!

[Stratman]

@NickfromwalesThanks for the replies and I agree.  Certainly getting the insulated raft from the same supplier would be better in terms of coordination and liability for defects, which is why I included MBC in the tender.  I am still sold on the idea of the insulated raft and I think I can get it for a better price from Green Raft or a local groundworker using Isoquick or similar insulation - looking like a £20k saving potentially.  I think I can manage the coordination.

 

@LnP I've done similar - spreadsheet to equalise quotes with estimates in the blank that one or the other doesn't provide. Scotframe come out a bit more expensive but they do include for way more elements (insulation, windows, internal doors, plasterboard, SAP, etc, etc). Fleming cheapest but more exclusions.

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Stratman said:

looking like a £20k saving potentially.  I think I can manage the coordination.

That’s a chunk of change, no doubting that. 
 

If you could negotiate that down to £10k I reckon the convenience / stress / time factor would sway me towards “one-stop” shopping tbh.

 

Let us know how you get on with options and estimates plz. 

[Mark Greenfield]

On 16/06/2025 at 21:43, LnP said:

Potton were the cheapest, Frame Technologies were +21%, Fleming were + 23% and MBC were + 35%. 

As always, the cheapest price might not be the best value. 

Potton were the cheapest, but are now out of the frame, so to speak - they are no longer making kits for self-builders apparently. That may explain why they were the cheapest, and the others were all very similar.

[JohnMo]

Or stick build on site? Our just simple cassettes made so joiners on site can quickly assemble. Which is the normal way in Scotland to build. Full house kits carry a big convenience premium.

[marmic]

I feel your pain! Was a difficult process selecting. Narrowed down by decison to go supply and install only.  We have Timber Innovations commencing on site next week with a Larsen truss system.  I will report back when they are done.  Ruled out sips quite early  - yes proven systems but just didn't feel right!

 

Careful with rafts all inclusive - I looked at this carefully early days as did seem attractive.  If soil survey recommends suspended floor (as with ours) structural warranty provider / BCO may not be happy with raft.

(we are on heavy clay and have deep strip footings with beam and block in end after preinsulated slab manufacturer moved the goalposts!)

 

Careful with over enthusiastic proposals.  You will also probably find initial dig and sub base will be excluded so any failure / movement this is where the finger will be pointed.  And if 2 purchase orders/contracts expected the reduced risk starts to disappear.  And you may find an unreasonable written contract by supplier/manufacturer is demanded (read the small print!) - as opposed to a contract in the form of a purchase order from the person spending the money!  You may be offered windows too but will want separate contract probably so again not as shiny as it sounds. Might be fine of course and reputation good - but i wasn't prepared to accept risk and sign contract

 

careful too with raft insulation providers - brilliant systems, but i know somebody who had problems with gaps etc which defeats the object!   if we had the right soil would have gone with raft without a doubt.  would have saved a whole world of grief with groundworker. (I know best - been doing this for hundreds of years guv etc!)

[LnP]

4 hours ago, Mark Greenfield said:

Potton were the cheapest, but are now out of the frame, so to speak - they are no longer making kits for self-builders apparently. That may explain why they were the cheapest, and the others were all very similar.

Potton no longer making kits for self-buiders? Where did you hear that? It's not my experience. I'm currently evaluating quotes and they are still engaging with me.

[Nickfromwales]

5 hours ago, Mark Greenfield said:

Potton were the cheapest, but are now out of the frame, so to speak - they are no longer making kits for self-builders apparently. That may explain why they were the cheapest, and the others were all very similar.

Yes, they seem to not like the friction of self-builders being 'involved', and prefer to just come in, whack the rubber stamp into the ink, and smack it down onto the paper, then leave asap. Nothing wrong with that as it's a fast and profitable business model, just non-sympathetic to the self-builder who wants to make material and fabric choices beyond the typical comfort zones that these folk have come to enjoy. They we're near impossible to talk to when looking to change from a crappy B&B foundation to a raft, with details and proposals for input air for a WBS (I convinced the client to ditch the WBS eventually, but the journey was difficult to bring in any such changes; more so to my disbelief as they we're not doing the founds for this particular client due to "difficult" grounds conditions on a sloping site!).

 

My founds guy and my favourite SE seem to take these things in their stride, so it's down to GAF and a bit of tenacity IMHO, to raise the bar and get the client something better, hopefully for the same money (or less as of recent experience). Also have a great architect to reach out to which oils the cogs massively; have met some clueless and even obtuse ones along the way, and they've been flushed and replaced.

 

I've gone through the filter with a number of TF suppliers/erectors and that's taken a long time to do, to see the good/bad/ugly, and the excellent, same with ICF, but for self-builders they need to get it right 1st time so a bit difficult when you only have one roll of the dice and then you're left with what you're left with.

 

Research, research, research, but you don't know what you don't know, and I've been around long enough with these types of projects to see 1st hand what a good project looks like. PM me if you want some details for the good ones .

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

51 minutes ago, marmic said:

Careful with rafts all inclusive - I looked at this carefully early days as did seem attractive.  If soil survey recommends suspended floor (as with ours) structural warranty provider / BCO may not be happy with raft.

(we are on heavy clay and have deep strip footings with beam and block in end after preinsulated slab manufacturer moved the goalposts!)

Done lots of these where the raft went on to piles, very quick and simple to do, again with an SE who gets down to business and takes control of the BCO.

 

SE overrules BCO btw, so be careful where you take input and instruction from  as some just seem to always err on the side of caution, often costing you more £xxxx.

53 minutes ago, marmic said:

You will also probably find initial dig and sub base will be excluded so any failure / movement this is where the finger will be pointed.

Geotechnical surveys are a must, and I always recommend getting independents in for this, so the aforementioned finger can be pointed at whomever was responsible for that specific element. Each to their own afaic.

 

54 minutes ago, marmic said:

You may be offered windows too but will want separate contract

Defo the right option there! The number of doors and windows packages that we've had to sort out and iron out wrinkles with is simply staggering, all the way down to removing completely doors and windows that have been installed, to do them again (properly) at the clients cost/request when I've pointed out the faux-pas. Folk may say this can't possibly still be happening in this day and age, yes it bloody well is!!

 

58 minutes ago, marmic said:

careful too with raft insulation providers - brilliant systems, but i know somebody who had problems with gaps etc which defeats the object!

Not so sure that's true tbh. Gaps are below the DPM, if any, and the installer should be using the U-pins to secure everything in place. I think this one is down to the individual experience of the installer/groundworkers, not the type of system, sorry. Often a lot of self builders see something progressing, with a big smile on their faces, and think it's all going well. Then someone in the trade arrives and says "that's not been done properly, tell them to do it again". Often that's a conversation I have to have, but still hate seeing the look on peoples faces when they get the news.

 

There's lots of good people out there, it's just hard to discover them is my direst experience, ask me how I know...

[Dunc]

We're mid-build with MBC. They were the most expensive but the guaranteed airtightness was a big plus in my mind. However, the "integrated offering" of insulated raft, frame, and windows turned out not to be possible for us in the end.

 

Early interaction with sales was very positive. The erection team were astounding to watch. Swift, without being rushed, and appear to be very competent. They should be having been at it for decades!

 

It's not been completely smooth sailing. Communication with the design team had some slow patches (I suspect they were working at full capacity when we were in that phase).  There were some areas of overlap between architect, SE and TF company which no-one seemed to really want to own. I had to push rather hard on a couple of things. 

 

There have been two structural/production errors that I identified post-erection. The measure of a good company is how they deal with these. So far solutions have been proposed with no wriggling or excuses, just a clear solution and timeline, which is as good as I could hope for.

 

Overall, happy and would recommend. But for ANY company you go with, make sure either you are all over every little detail at every moment. It's astounding what "slips through the cracks" particularly during the design and engineering phase. 

 

[LnP]

3 hours ago, Dunc said:

 

Overall, happy and would recommend. But for ANY company you go with, make sure either you are all over every little detail at every moment. It's astounding what "slips through the cracks" particularly during the design and engineering phase. 

 

 

Good advice. It's like any project I suppose.

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

6 hours ago, Dunc said:

The measure of a good company is how they deal with these. So far solutions have been proposed with no wriggling or excuses, just a clear solution and timeline, which is as good as I could hope for.

I've seen this in action with previous projects I've been on where MBC were the package provider; problem arises, they respond immediately, positively, with zero friction or delay. Folk are only human at the end of the day, so it's inevitable something will go squiff, just refreshing to see it put right quickly with the minimal of fuss.

[Gus Potter]

10 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Or stick build on site? Our just simple cassettes made so joiners on site can quickly assemble. Which is the normal way in Scotland to build. Full house kits carry a big convenience premium.

Good comment John.

 

Actually in Scotland we were at the forefront of bringing TF to the UK market. We are still at the forefront of insulation values I have to say. I work all over the UK but I'm just making a point that us Jocks know a bit about TF design!

 

Main reason as always.. is money and that was backed up by us having some great family timber type merchants that got into TF design..they could be trusted to keep your money safe..up to a point.. no massive deposits up front in the early days.  to cut a long story short.

 

When I started in this business some 40 years ago as a builder (before I became an SE / Designer), I used to stick build the TF walls, maybe on site or in a farmer's shed  and buy in roof trusses.. there was a saving and importantly there still is. The old rule of thumb and still applies it that if you split lots of things into small work packages then you'll build a house for about 15% less. @nod is a massively hard working and dedicated self builder and can achieve greater savings.. but let's say this is your first self build so expect a 15% saving. 

 

Now when I was a builder I obtained a Mitek licence to manufacture our own roof trusses. Here is what I learnt! There is very little money in manufacturing unless you are doing huge volume, the profits lie in what you can sell off the back of that. That might be say insulation.. or hidden things like inflating the fire stopping cost. What can you sell in terms of air tightness, the service you provide, smooth the way with say BC.

 

The reality is that if you go to any TF outfit there is negligeable milage in it for them just selling you the timber nailed together.. it's the add ons where their profit lies. And once you add all that up it makes you ask why don't you just buy a new house off the shelf! But you'll still think you are a self builder. 

 

As an SE that knows a bit about insulated raft design. I'm sceptical as to whether some of these turn key TF packages actually offer best value..

 

In summary I would encourage folk to back to basics.. like real self builders.. expecting that you are going to make any significant saving by spliting a build into a few main work packages is like shopping at M & S.. it tastes good at the time but in the long run.. you be adding the oncost onto your mortgage. 

 

On 16/06/2025 at 19:58, Stratman said:

I have quotes from four TF suppliers,

To make any reasonable comparison you need to look a simple stupid stick build cost and that will let you see if all the others are ripping you off or not! To be blunt thye all know how each other price.. but is the spread of prices actually reasonable. I can tell you that this is not always the case.

 

I often work for Clients who build some high end houses, well insulated.. we find the right contractor and stick build it. Now here is a bit of a rub.. it's to do with the "art of the financial deal" and method of payment that can be more "flexible" than say dealing with MBC et al. @Nickfromwales catch my drift?

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Gus Potter said:

I often work for Clients who build some high end houses, well insulated.. we find the right contractor and stick build it. Now here is a bit of a rub.. it's to do with the "art of the financial deal" and method of payment that can be more "flexible" than say dealing with MBC et al. @Nickfromwales catch my drift?

I'd love to have the capacity to go on to one of these jobs with the same budget available to me, and run a close-knit team of trades to build the same thing for a decent chunk of profit.....but it just doesn't ever seem to work out unless the jobs are back-to-back and are rolling out of a conveyor belt.

 

MBC have a near unique USP, and their prices reflect this; if you go to the local corner shop for a pint of milk it'll cost you way more than going further for a supermarket, so the convenience factor is at play here.

 

When entrusting large sums of money you want reassurance that you'll get what you were promised, another USP for any worthy supply & fit company, so best to be honest here and say those who don't have time or knowledge will give up the extra fees to have someone to be held accountable for any issues, minor or major, which brings a lot of comfort and reduces stress and anxiety 100 fold vs 'going it alone'.

 

There's a hell of a lot to go wrong, if coordinating and leading a project such as a full new build by one's self, and some think they "got this" (a lot soon realise they "don't got this" btw...) and then are left holding a very expensive baby.

 

You can buy a load of car parts off eBay and build a car by hand, or you can go to a car sales and drive off in less than an hour, depends if you've got the time/space/tools/knowledge, same as anything else.

 

I've seen a lot of self builders go massively over budget, purely by misadventure or having balls bigger than their brains.

[Gus Potter]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

I'd love to have the capacity to go on to one of these jobs with the same budget available to me, and run a close-knit team of trades to build the same thing for a decent chunk of profit.....but it just doesn't ever seem to work out unless the jobs are back-to-back and are rolling out of a conveyor belt.

Nick.

 

As you know In used to be a contractor, went off to uni to reinvent myself as an SE at the age of 40, I got my bus pass this year. Now some of my mates say.. was it worth it financially?.. some said you'll never get through uni. In terms of pure money probably not. To get to uni I shut my business, flogged the house I had self built, dog died and wife departed.. I was lonely!

 

I used to take home say 40 -50k a year 20 years ago. I got entry to Uni in second year as I had got an HND when I was a teenager. In the round I recon on the face of it my uni adventure cost me about £ 250k. However what uni did for me was to give me the tools to teach myself. I saw uni as a way to start a consultancy and fly a desk most of the time.. Deep down I knew that the years working on the tools were going to take a toll on my body.. need new hips in the future.. so now that £250k is not so bad and anyway it's an abstract concept as I would have still needed to work my arse off when instead I spent 4 years enjoying lectures and doing research. 

 

I used to employ about 6- 8 full time staff and then subbies.. lots of mouths to feed.. the stress can be hard at times.Now when I went to uni I thought once I get to learn about this SE malarky it will take me about another 5 years to build some kind of business that I can make a living from. It's actually taken me about 7 years where now I get lots of repeat business, have got a list of builders that I work with and get whacky jobs all over the UK.. the great fun part coming in. 

 

Now in that time I have landed for example a couple of Clients that are big business folk in and around Glasgow.. they have large industrial holdings, big retail business, own parcels of land and so on and they do self builds for themselves and importantly for family members. In summary they are quite happy to employ the likes of me and small builders to stick build some of their multi million pound houses! as they are in now rush and by not being in a rush they save a pile of cash.. and that is maybe why they are mutli millionairs!

 

Bide your time Nick.. you work hard and funnily folk that work hard often get lucky! But one last word of warning.. work on 30 days payment, if in doubt proforma many genuine good customers will appreciate your good deal and pay on the nail.

 

I have one Client at the moment that pays the same day! and in return I try to reciprocate in recognition. 

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

There's a hell of a lot to go wrong, if coordinating and leading a project such as a full new build by one's self, and some think they "got this" (a lot soon realise they "don't got this" btw...) and then are left holding a very expensive baby.

But Nick that is where you can make hay. You have the experience, the contacts. What I've noticed about you is that your range of knowledge is exceptional, play to your strenghts and play of a straight bat. 

 

 

[Stratman]

11 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

To make any reasonable comparison you need to look a simple stupid stick build cost and that will let you see if all the others are ripping you off or not!

The appeal of engaging one of the big off site frame providers over a stick build timber frame is that they should have certain advantages for the (especially novice) self builder:

 

1. The off site nature should equate to higher levels of accuracy and better quality control: things are more likely to be put together better in the comfort of a factory (and subsequently checked for QA) than on a muddy, windy, rainy site.

2. For those interested in air tightness and thermal efficiency, the more insulation that is fitted in a factory, the better; it's likely to be precision cut and fitted tightly.

3. Small contractors are more susceptible to financial instability; large companies less so and more likely to have robust insurance in case things go wrong.

4. Large companies are likely to be more comfortable being bound by strict forms of contract that a small builder might be less comfortable with.

 

In my view all of these things have value, and I'm willing to pay a bit extra to take advantage of these benefits to (hopefully!) get a better finished product with (evrything crossed now!) fewer hiccups along the way.  That said, I've no doubt that more experienced and able self builders will be happier engaging smaller stick build contractors and achieve the results they want.

 

I really hope it pays off ofr us!

[JohnMo]

2 hours ago, Stratman said:

The appeal of engaging one of the big off site frame providers over a stick build timber frame is that they should have certain advantages for the (especially novice) self builder:

 

1. The off site nature should equate to higher levels of accuracy and better quality control: things are more likely to be put together better in the comfort of a factory (and subsequently checked for QA) than on a muddy, windy, rainy site.

2. For those interested in air tightness and thermal efficiency, the more insulation that is fitted in a factory, the better; it's likely to be precision cut and fitted tightly.

3. Small contractors are more susceptible to financial instability; large companies less so and more likely to have robust insurance in case things go wrong.

4. Large companies are likely to be more comfortable being bound by strict forms of contract that a small builder might be less comfortable with.

 

In my view all of these things have value, and I'm willing to pay a bit extra to take advantage of these benefits to (hopefully!) get a better finished product with (evrything crossed now!) fewer hiccups along the way.  That said, I've no doubt that more experienced and able self builders will be happier engaging smaller stick build contractors and achieve the results they want.

 

I really hope it pays off ofr us!

Well you have certainly convinced yourself it's the way to go.

 

I priced, reviewed and then went self construction with ICF. With additional trades as needed. Best choice for me.