Who is really 'Self Building'

[Crofter]

Pondering this question a bit more...

 

For somebody with no actual qualifications, what's the maximum amount of DIY that you could possibly do whilst remaining legal and following all the rules and regs? Or to put it another way, which parts of a build must be done by a qualified person?

 

E.g. anybody can draw a house and submit a planning application. Anybody can hire a mini digger and have a crack at levelling the site. Etc etc. Electrics have to be signed off though. What about structural calculations? If your numbers are correct, will they be accepted even if you aren't a SE yourself? Does your blower door test have to be done by an independent party and if so, do they have to have some sort of qualification? (I did my own perc tests and was surprised that the council didn't need me to get a 3rd part in- I could easily have fudged the numbers in order to get away with a cheaper system. I didn't, because I'm not an idiot).

 

This is largely a hypothetical question but as I limber up for self build no.2 it's of genuine interest. I built my last house almost entirely by myself, but I was exempt from regs for that one. I'm wondering how different things will have to be this time around, as I look at a more conventional build route.

[SteamyTea]

3 hours ago, Crofter said:

This is largely a hypothetical question

It is the same question I asked a while back, with no answers.

[MikeSharp01]

6 hours ago, Crofter said:

This is largely a hypothetical question but as I limber up for self build no.2 it's of genuine interest. I built my last house almost entirely by myself, but I was exempt from regs for that one. I'm wondering how different things will have to be this time around, as I look at a more conventional build route.

 

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

It is the same question I asked a while back, with no answers.

Guess it depends on your local regs, what systems are in the build, the flexibility or otherwise of your chosen building control (BC) supplier and your personal capabilities to some extent. Here is my rough cast list for England, and I may have it wrong so lets see what others think:

• Electrical installation sign off - might be an electrician or could be done by BC, who will arrange for testing on your behalf,  if agreed prior and then you can do the install yourself unless it involves your incoming supply which will need to be done by your local Domestic Network Operator (DNO). In the case of Solar / battery / ASHP installs if your want MCS certification you will need that done by an MCS certified electrician.
• Plumbing sign off - only need be done by a qualified person, holding the correct tickets, if it involves gas work or a sealed cylinder or you want MCS certification for say an ASHP for anything associated with the main supply of water you will need the local water company to complete but you can possibly do some of the labouring / digging for that - same for gas supply. Also if having your own bore hole / treatment plant needs third party sign off I think.
• EPC / SAP - must be by third party I think!!!
• Air tightness - must be by third party, but if you own, or have access to, equipment with national standards traceability and your BC is prepared to accept I think you could do that one yourself.
• MVHR (if used) - must have balancing / flow rates and your BC may or may not accept your own certification - experience here (on Buildhub) says they normally will accept DiY.
• Structural Engineering - your building control will need to be confident that all the structural elements are correct and this usually involves getting an structural engineer to issue drawings and calculations. If you were up for it you could probably do this yourself but it would need to be approved by your BC and you will have no insurance recourse if it goes wrong.
• Other Building Control sign offs you will probably need a paper trail from others - Fire protection EG steels protection, Windows - install paperwork, glass certifications (EG Toughened - usually engraved on the glass), the area / orientation of glass for overheating control, communications infrastructure - High speed internet connection some of which you might be able to do yourself! 
• Site insurance (third party minimum)- must be third party.

There's a kick off list for England, I am confident there are more, Scotland is different but I have no experience so am leaving that for others.

[ProDave]

Re sign off.  Obviously there is the design and things like structural engineer.  We paid an AT to do all the design and produce all the drawings to the satisfaction of building control and issue of a building warrant.

 

Electrical install required sign off, that was my job so for me easy.

 

Plumbing, the only sign off was unvented G3 and Gas safe for the hob.  I did the plumbing for both, a plumber I know did the tests and G3 sign off and a different plumber issued the gas safe certificate.

 

AS built SAP issued by the same company that did the design SAP using the final figures I supplied including the air test results.

 

BC effectively certified the stove install, they were very particular checking distance to combustible materials comparing actual to that the stoves install manual stated.

 

All drain pressure tests done by me and witnessed by BC.

 

Glass.  BC just checked all the low level windows and doors for the toughened label on the glass units.

 

 

[saveasteading]

Re my field, which is Civil Engineering

( thus including drainage and Structural):

To a large extent the bco will decide on needing  more or less,  independent and expert input after seeing the proposals and meeting you.

 

If your written proposals and calculations look as if they follow the regulations, then they may have a run through it themselves or have their retained Engineer do so. OR reasonably require it all to be done or certified by a qualified person.

Anything that is not a detailed process in the reg's though will need expertise.

The bco will never do it for you. 

 

For example , if you have used the published  calculations and methods for drainage and presented them well then they will probably accept that.

 

"- I could easily have fudged the numbers in order to get away with a cheaper system. I didn't, because I'm not an idiot)."

 

the bco trusted you in both understanding the process and in not cheating. Plus they've seen plenty local projects and know the likely size of a system.

 

 

For normal size houses with smallish rooms, the joists and walls can come straight from published tables.

The Scottish regs are particularly practical on this and you barely need an SE.

 

But a beam? No way. Must be by an Engineer. It's not just knowing how to calculate the beam that takes that span, but where the loads are coming from.

 

I don't think any of that outsourced technical  input  stops it it being self build.

  I'm struggling with a definition.

You must be the project manager.

And the site manager.

It is not a complete package by a main contractor.

The risks are yours.

 

Is any element at all of hands-on essential? .. I don't think so.

 

If one gets the whole box built by a kit contractor, then brings in finishing trades is that self build? Just about, because it could still go horribly wrong.

 

 

 

 

[Crofter]

 

12 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

 

• Electrical installation sign off

Yes, I was expecting that.

 

 

12 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

• Plumbing sign off... if it involves gas work or a sealed cylinder or you want MCS certification

Yup

 

12 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

• EPC / SAP - must be by third party I think!!!

Quick glance suggests this can be found for around £150? So not too bad. I think a lot of us would have our heads so deep in to our projects that we could reel off the u value of every piece of the build. But I don't know how turn that in to a SAP value or EPC.

 

 

12 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

• Air tightness - must be by third party, but if you own, or have access to, equipment with national standards traceability and your BC is prepared to accept I think you could do that one yourself.

Interesting. I'd imagine when the time comes, I'd feel pretty aggrieved paying hundreds for somebody to tape a fan to my door and run it for a few minutes.

 

 

12 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

• MVHR (if used) - must have balancing / flow rates and your BC may or may not accept your own certification - experience here (on Buildhub) says they normally will accept DiY.

Seems common, yes.

 

 

12 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

• Structural Engineering - your building control will need to be confident that all the structural elements are correct and this usually involves getting an structural engineer to issue drawings and calculations. If you were up for it you could probably do this yourself but it would need to be approved by your BC and you will have no insurance recourse if it goes wrong.

So you think this would be at the discretion of the BCO? If the plans I submit are structurally sound, is the onus on them to satisfy themselves of that, or do I have to 'show my working' or, even worse, will they not accept it unless a chartered engineer has signed it off?

 

 

12 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

• the area / orientation of glass for overheating control,

Doesn't this come in to the SAP?

 

 

12 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

• Site insurance (third party minimum)- must be third party.

Where does this requirement come from? Is it an occupier's liability thing? I didn't have any insurance on my last build but then again I was outside most of the regs.

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> the area / orientation of glass for overheating control,

>>> Doesn't this come in to the SAP?

 

No, it's a part O calc. Could be done yourself.

[SteamyTea]

I have heard the term 'built under notice', which seems to be trusting the builder to do the right things.

Is this for just relatively minor things like small extensions and fitting porches, or can it cover a complete build?

[MikeSharp01]

1 hour ago, Crofter said:

So you think this would be at the discretion of the BCO? If the plans I submit are structurally sound, is the onus on them to satisfy themselves of that, or do I have to 'show my working' or, even worse, will they not accept it unless a chartered engineer has signed it off?

You need to show your working for anything even slightly off the beaten track! (see what @saveasteading says above.

 

1 hour ago, Crofter said:

Doesn't this come in to the SAP?

No it is part of the new Part O of the building reg (England) you need to show your calculations / working out.

 

1 hour ago, Crofter said:

Where does this requirement come from? Is it an occupier's liability thing?

I hesitate to say - common sense but in fact many trades won't work on the site without it and some things cannot be done without it in place - EG MCS grants.

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

have heard the term 'built under notice

Building notice: (Not Scotland.).

 

An alternative to submitting a "fulll plans" application for approval prior to commencement.

 

" here is my fee. Please be aware I am starting this construction immediately ...I will send drawings and calculations from time to time but meanwhile invite you to  inspect progress."

 

I did this many times but it needs a massive level of confidence.

It is risky as you are building entirely at risk of the bco disagreeing or doubting the construction.

You may be digging foundations and pouring concrete, the bco looking in the holes, but the bco's SE hasn't agreed, even looked, at the numbers  yet.

Ditto the superstructure and everything else.

It might have to all come down again.

 

Given a few cases where the bco did disagree on major matters of interpretation,  I'd always do a "full plans" application if there was time. But building notice was needed for quick turnaround.

Eg client says here is my rough plan, can you design it and build it in a year? 

NB this was as a 'design and buld' contractor. It would be even more risky if not all in-house.

 

Please do "full plans" everyone. In Scotland it remains the only way.

 

 

 

 

[ProDave]

We did an entire 2 storey extension under a building notice when we were down south.  It worked astonishingly well, no problems at all.  But then the builder we used had come highly recommended and there was nothing particularly complicated about it.  I also remember the astonishingly (by todays standard) cost of building the shell including foundations and roof of just £18K

[saveasteading]

37 minutes ago, ProDave said:

nothing particularly complicated about it

Good point. Esp for an extension.  If you use standard details and the rooms aren't huge then the superstructure isn't at much risk.

Foundations to match existing. Drains join existing.

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> Who is really 'Self Building'?

 

I think anyone of us who manages to negotiate the crocodile-filled swamp that comprises the planners, utilities, contractors, neighbours, building control, financial services companies etc deserves the award of an advanced degree for building physics, a medal for dealing with difficult organisations and a CBE for sheer persistence. I did a masters degree at a fancy university as a mature student a decade ago. That was full on, and I think self-build is probably twice as difficult as that - so maybe PhD level of difficulty.

[Crofter]

2 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

>>> Who is really 'Self Building'?

 

I think anyone of us who manages to negotiate the crocodile-filled swamp that comprises the planners, utilities, contractors, neighbours, building control, financial services companies etc deserves the award of an advanced degree for building physics, a medal for dealing with difficult organisations and a CBE for sheer persistence. I did a masters degree at a fancy university as a mature student a decade ago. That was full on, and I think self-build is probably twice as difficult as that - so maybe PhD level of difficulty.

 

We did a self built at the same time as having a baby... not sure which one caused more stress...

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

I think self-build is probably twice as difficult

It is, if you do most of it yourself,  a multitude of design, management and practical skills, and not a single subject.

It could not be taught as a subject in  itself.

[ToughButterCup]

6 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

 ...so maybe PhD level of difficulty.

 

Change 'so maybe'  to 'is definitely.'

I was in the business.

[SteamyTea]

6 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

so maybe PhD level of difficulty.

Studying for a Doctorate is not that hard, just very focused, making it easy to loose ones way, especially if the supervisor has other ideas.

In some ways it is very similar to any project.

One difference, in the sciences anyway, is the evidence based needed. There is no room for opinion or unverifiable 'truths'.