Tony Blair

[JohnMo]

42 minutes ago, Mattg4321 said:

Bizarre thing to say.

No more bizarre than

 

3 hours ago, Mattg4321 said:

amount of tax I pay as a proportion of income has increased by getting on for 10%over the past 10 years  -  Can’t say I’m feeling it’s VFM at the moment. Considering moving abroad

So you pay a bit more tax, that will hopefully get us away from the crap services, the last government left us with.

[Mattg4321]

18 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

No more bizarre than

 

So you pay a bit more tax, that will hopefully get us away from the crap services, the last government left us with.

I don’t think it’s bizarre to complain when we have the worst public services in recent history and the highest tax take. 
 

All the while our leaders are spending our money on more and more ludicrous vanity projects. I don’t care whether they are wearing a red or blue rosette to be honest. 
 

Their only remit is to serve us and act in our best interests. I would think there is strong support in the general public for cleaning up our emissions in a way that doesn’t require massive restrictions on freedoms that previous generations have enjoyed - such as the odd foreign holiday or a car. Everyone wants cleaner air, water and safer food supplies.
 

I doubt many GAF about CO2 if it means giving up their holidays and car and the rest of the world isn’t following suit anyway. I can’t believe there is more than 5% of the population who supports spending millions of pounds on trying to ‘dim the sun’ ffs. All the while cancer patients are waiting well in excess of what they should be. 
 

Priorities. Happy to pay my fair share of tax. Not happy for it to be spent making the super rich elite more powerful and even more wealthy at our expense - whatever the reason given - whether it be Covid or climate or whatever. Won’t shut up about it. 

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, Mattg4321 said:

that doesn’t require massive restrictions on freedoms that previous generations have enjoyed

Were are these restrictions, I still have a car, can book a flight, get on a train, even ride a bicycle if I want.

4 minutes ago, Mattg4321 said:

Everyone wants cleaner air, water and safer food supplies.

Generally yes, but most people do not realise it has to be paid for somewhere.

Would it be fairer to charge individuals for their personal usage, charge companies registered in the home country, take it out of general taxation, whichever is applied, there will be a large vocal group that thinks it is wrong.

 

As for health care, we are not doing too bad compared to the rest.

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2024/sep/mirror-mirror-2024

 

[saveasteading]

Sorry @SteamyTea.

That isn't the impeccable standard we expect from you. I know it's not you but a source.

 

A graph with no numbers or datum? Where even is zero?

 

[BotusBuild]

Saw this on FaceAche. Interesting explanation.

 

https://www.facebook.com/share/16bjH3NyKQ/

[SteamyTea]

14 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

graph with no numbers or datum? Where even is zero

Quite common to do charts like that in the social sciences when the data is often qualative, rather than quantitative.

But the data sources are there.

 

I have just been listening to Any Questions, quite an interesting debate about the power outages.

What made it interesting is the polarisation i.e. it is renewables, or lack of fossil fuels, or just the drive to net zero, the BBC not trusting the public.

Shame that no one said that getting to netball zero involved many different systems being integrated. It is probably that integration that is the real problem.

Did make me wonder about how much money gets passed through the London Stock Exchange for high and low carbon industries. Many of those trades will be investing in overseas companies, which should be accounted for when calculating national carbon budgets.

[Mike]

On 30/04/2025 at 08:51, G and J said:

I wonder if some bright spark (sic) might deploy a fleet of short term rental Citroen Amis in a town like the e-bikes.

Good idea - Citiz have been growing a network similar to that in France for 20 years, mostly in cities and towns, but in some rural areas too (more, in English, here).

 

While most of their vehicles aren't yet electric (and they don't include the Citroen Ami), they claim that every one of their vehicles removes 8 to 10 privately owned ones. That also means that people increases the number of trips they take by alternative means (e-bikes, public transport, walking, ride-sharing, etc.) so that each Citiz vehicle has the effect of reducing overall CO₂ emissions by around 10 tonnes per year.

 

I'm a member myself, so can reserve a vehicle anywhere in France within a couple of minutes from the app. There are also various smaller private sector schemes (Citiz is a network of 14 regional co-ops & public sector operators).

[Roger440]

On 03/05/2025 at 09:02, Mattg4321 said:

Glad you’re paying less tax, because I most certainly am not. At a quick guess I think the amount of tax I pay as a proportion of income has increased by getting on for 10%over the past 10 years  - and my earnings haven’t really changed a great deal, just gone up in line with inflation. Can’t say I’m feeling it’s VFM at the moment. Considering moving abroad, but where!?
 

 

 

Indeed. Most are paying more tax than ever, for less than ever.

 

That the tax take is at its highest for decades is fact. Not subjective.

 

There are of course individuals in the system who due to their circumstances havent seen an increase.

 

The reality is, no matter how high taxation goes, nothing is getting fixed. Net zero will merely adds to that taxation.  A lot.

 

 

[Roger440]

On 03/05/2025 at 12:48, JohnMo said:

No more bizarre than

 

So you pay a bit more tax, that will hopefully get us away from the crap services, the last government left us with.

 

Paying more tax isnt going to improve services. Id bet good money on that.

 

Paying more tax just means a bigger transfer of wealth from us, to a select few. Net zero is a dream vehicle by which to do that. The success/output cannot be measured or quantified, so more money will be needed indefintely.

[IGP]

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

 

Indeed. Most are paying more tax than ever, for less than ever.

 

That the tax take is at its highest for decades is fact. Not subjective.

 

There are of course individuals in the system who due to their circumstances havent seen an increase.

 

The reality is, no matter how high taxation goes, nothing is getting fixed. Net zero will merely adds to that taxation.  A lot.

 

 

Just a point on tax take, across the economy that’s true, I.e the highest it’s been for a long time - but also couldn’t be further from the truth when it comes to taxes on individuals on or around average incomes. 
 

https://ifs.org.uk/articles/how-tax-burden-high-when-most-us-are-taxed-so-low

 

People hear “tax burden highest ever” and assume that includes them as it ‘feels’ like it is - but for most it’s just not actually true. 

[SteamyTea]

53 minutes ago, IGP said:

People hear “tax burden highest ever” and assume that includes them as it ‘feels’ like it is - but for most it’s just not actually true. 

Yes.

Hard to get that message across. 

 

In some ways, having higher taxation on discretionary purchased is a good way to raise extra income.

Not as if the Range rover or Tesla driver is excluded from driving a Dacia or Kia (though they would still drive like pricks  probably).

 

[Mattg4321]

I can only speak as I personally find, and it’s significantly higher for me/my business as a Ltd micro company director. &nbsp
 

As above, my main gripe isn’t the above. It’s that the extra money is siphoned off before ever going into improving essential public services. 

[JohnMo]

14 minutes ago, Mattg4321 said:

can only speak as I personally find, and it’s significantly higher for me/my business as a Ltd micro company director. &nbsp

So on your own income - you are (or should be) paying the best part of zero tax anyway. If you are not you are not running your company and your pay structures efficiently. You should or will be paying the best part of zero employees or employer NI, the only real tax paid will be on dividends.

 

If you have employees that may be different.

[Mattg4321]

6 hours ago, JohnMo said:

So on your own income - you are (or should be) paying the best part of zero tax anyway. If you are not you are not running your company and your pay structures efficiently. You should or will be paying the best part of zero employees or employer NI, the only real tax paid will be on dividends.

 

If you have employees that may be different.

For a basic rate taxpayer especially as Ltd company director over the last 10 years its dividend tax that is the killer. Gone from effectively 0% to 8.5% after the first £500

 

 

[jfb]

7 hours ago, Mattg4321 said:

my main gripe isn’t the above. It’s that the extra money is siphoned off before ever going into improving essential public services.

Maybe it’s time we started outsourcing public services so that private equity can do the siphoning!

Oh wait - most of them have already.

 

[S2D2]

1 hour ago, Mattg4321 said:

Gone from effectively 0% to 8.5% after the first £500

Most employees would be extremely happy with an 8.5% tax rate.

[SteamyTea]

10 minutes ago, S2D2 said:

Most employees would be extremely happy with an 8.5% tax rate

Especially if they got an effective tax rebate at the highest rate they pay on their pension contributions.

[JohnMo]

13 minutes ago, S2D2 said:

Most employees would be extremely happy with an 8.5% tax rate.

Yep - not sure I would be complaining. If you aren't actually paying national insurance you get most services for free, the normal working person pays it all for you. But still they they whinge.  Did the same for years, no way would I feel hard done by. 

Directors - not governed by minimum pay requirements, so

Pay your wage at NI threshold, all the benefits of paying NI, but zero cost to employer or employee

Pay your self a dividend, loads of benefits there with tax credits, pay money in to pension get full tax relief.

Downside you have to do a tax return each year, but lots of upsides from a tax perspective

 

 

[Roger440]

9 hours ago, Mattg4321 said:

I can only speak as I personally find, and it’s significantly higher for me/my business as a Ltd micro company director. &nbsp
 

As above, my main gripe isn’t the above. It’s that the extra money is siphoned off before ever going into improving essential public services. 

 

Likewise.

 

I have taken action to reduce my tax, by the simple expedient of working less.

 

The incentives to work hard just keep on shrinking.

 

Until recently, I used to run a business, employ people, pay corp tax (more than starbucks(!)). Not a chance id run a business now. You are just a cash cow to be bled dry at every turn. 

 

As i said its quite obvious public services and the standard of living are only going one way, while tax goes the other. Irrespective of who is in the chair at any monent. Whilst i cant remove myself from the "system" i sure can reduce my contribution to it.  

 

And to add to the sheer stupidity, if i get my income below £31k (likely) then i can have £45k of work done to my house free of charge, a grant, not a loan, to install heat pump, solar and insulation. Earn one penny more, nothing, i have to pay. Guess what im going to do?

Edited 14 hours ago by Roger440

[Mattg4321]

2 hours ago, S2D2 said:

Most employees would be extremely happy with an 8.5% tax rate.

 

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Especially if they got an effective tax rebate at the highest rate they pay on their pension contributions.

 

2 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Yep - not sure I would be complaining. If you aren't actually paying national insurance you get most services for free, the normal working person pays it all for you. But still they they whinge.  Did the same for years, no way would I feel hard done by. 

Directors - not governed by minimum pay requirements, so

Pay your wage at NI threshold, all the benefits of paying NI, but zero cost to employer or employee

Pay your self a dividend, loads of benefits there with tax credits, pay money in to pension get full tax relief.

Downside you have to do a tax return each year, but lots of upsides from a tax perspective

 

 

8.5% is after paying corporation tax at 19% or more depending on size of company/profit. I also charge vat on my labour which is of course passed straight on to the taxman.  And there’s little alternative as it would otherwise mean paying employees and employers NI which would make the effective tax rate far higher than an employed person or sole trader. In fact it’s quite often higher than sole trader anyway, a fact most people are ignorant to. “Most services for free” my backside.  That’s without the accountancy costs of operating a Ltd company. 
 

Try the calculator here with say a £40k annual profit. 
 

https://www.123financials.com/calculator/company-vs-sole-trader

 

Again you lot are missing my point though. It’s increased by a significant amount recently and the public services have got much poorer. I don’t object to paying my fair share, I object to it being wasted on things other than essential public services. 

[Mike]

12 hours ago, IGP said:

People hear “tax burden highest ever” and assume that includes them as it ‘feels’ like it is - but for most it’s just not actually true

 

And the average UK worker pays much less tax than many of the other leading economies, as below (from the OECD's Taxing Wages 2025 - several other charts are worth a look too).

.

 

The taxes here in France are some of the highest (for businesses too), but you notice the difference - the country feels in much better shape than the UK, despite its various problems.