Planning Approved - Feedback on proposed layout

[Owain1602]

Hello, we were granted approval to "upgrade" our existing Class Q to full planning on our barn conversion a couple of weeks ago. 

 

Now that has gone through planning, I would like to share the plans and get feedback from people that have actually done this, and have experience how numbers on a page turn out in reality. Plus, there might be things we can do with the design now that makes things a lot easier down the line.

 

The build will be a timber frame construction with a passive slab, standing seam roof.

 

There are a few caveats to the plans shown below:

• Barn will be ~300mm taller than shown in the elevations
• Fenestration is a bit of a mess (needed to get plans submitted quickly as we had a potential issue with Class Q expiry, they were very much a submission to establish the principle). We will apply to change these with a NMA once we're all set with the layout
• Please ignore the portal steel frame in the plans

 

Some points which I've just started to think about:

1. Is the plant room big enough (house will have ASHP with underfloor heating, water cylinder, MVHR, not very bothered about smart tech)
2. Can I duct the ASHP pipework out underneath the slab such that the unit itself can be positioned on the North or East side of the house (plant room is next to front door and I don't want an ugly unit right outside the front door)
3. How could the MVHR be positioned with the inlet/outlet to external? (Will be contacting an MVHR company to design the system shortly)

 

Really looking forward to hear any feedback you might have (not sure I have the headspace to consider a complete U-turn with the layout though!)

 

 

 

[IanR]

7 hours ago, Owain1602 said:

Hello, we were granted approval to "upgrade" our existing Class Q to full planning on our barn conversion a couple of weeks ago. 

~~~~~~~~~~snip

The build will be a timber frame construction with a passive slab, standing seam roof.

 

There are a few caveats to the plans shown below:

• Barn will be ~300mm taller than shown in the elevations
• Fenestration is a bit of a mess (needed to get plans submitted quickly as we had a potential issue with Class Q expiry, they were very much a submission to establish the principle). We will apply to change these with a NMA once we're all set with the layout
• Please ignore the portal steel frame in the plans

 

Well done, you must have crossed a lot of hurdles to get to this point! Lovely project!

 

Will that be a "thick" timber frame with lot's of insulation to go with that passive slab/raft?

 

Ignore the Portal Frame? - Have you got permission to knock down and rebuild? Even better if so!!!

 

Re. Plant Room, assuming warm roof can you make any space above the 1st floor to house MVHR, and maybe UVC, Buffer? etc. If you can, then centalise your coms up there as well. 

 

Yes you can (and should) duct your ASHP under the raft. (pre insualted twin pipe from someone like Rehau)

MVHR to external should be on same wall or roof plane, ideally 5m apart, 3m Min.

[Blooda]

Well done, and welcome. 

A few comments:-

The Plant room will never be big enough  

The pantry is in an odd place [and seems to have no doors on this :-  unless you are planning to use your utility as a spice/butler kitchen.  

Consider the route of your bed sheets, during the laundry process, if your washer is in your utility.  The route is bedroom - landing - stairs - hall - living - dining kitchen - utility - wash - kitchen - dining - outside - dry - dining - living - hall - stairs - landing storage. 

Plant / utility could be swapped. 

 

Guest Ensuite could become family bath / ensuite with 2 doors.

 

Bathroom could become jack and Jill ensuite.

Can create cupboard on the  landing :- for aforementioned sheets, MVHR extraction in here will keep them nice and fresh.  we also have a very small radiator connected in our landing cupboard to the towel rail circuit as SWMBO wanted an airing cupboard, as she had always had one. 

 

Please excuse the crudity of the drawing 

 

[JohnMo]

I know you are starting from a barn, but 380m² for a 4 bed house is lots of wasted space, but with pocky cupboard downstairs and little else. Think about storage.

 

Ideally you would have the plant where you propose to site the heat pump. Just bring pipes through wall. Your cylinder is likely to 600mm dia, but will need some room around it for maintenance. You don't need to have MVHR in the plant room, so look for a central location so duct length aren't huge. Same is true for UFH manifold.

 

Your hall is the same size as a small house.

 

You could have a major issue with control of fire spread, as you lounge is open to upstairs and not segregated from kitchen.

 

Do you need an accessibility shower/bathroom room? Even if you don't, you have enough space to make one downstairs. You may have no accessibility needs, nor did we, but ice and a fall incapacitated my wife for 2 months and the accessibility shower was a god send. Strongly consider it.

 

We found a trip to the beach with tape measure and drawings was great. We draw out the house in the sand full size and walked through the building, first revision seemed great but just didn't work, so we moved doors and walls, to make it work. Best 2 hours spent in the whole process. Did it twice.

[Owain1602]

Thanks very much for your interesting comments, some useful points already.

 

First, to @JohnMo's point regarding fire spread. Do you think we should look at properly closing off the kitchen/dining area with a wall like I've drawn in blue? Would also help with reducing spread of cooking smells etc through the rest of the house (as a secondary importance of-course!)

 

 

I see what you're saying about the storage, but we were planning on having storage built in to the office and playroom.

 

For the ASHP plumbing, on the other side of the wall next to the W/C is where the ASHP would work, since it's by where the cars will be parked. So we could consider swapping the W/C and the plant room.

If the underfloor heating manifold was to be placed behind a cabinet in the boot room, could I run the feed/return lines through the first floor posi joints from the new location of the plan room? Or would you put a duct in during the slab pouring?

 

Must say that I'm struggling a bit with the MVHR. With it being a barn, we have a shallow roof pitch, so it doesn't naturally create a typically generous loft space. Plus I assume it might be best to not place it directly above a bedroom from a noise perspective. 

 

 

To the other points:

 

@IanR Yes, it will be a "thick" timber frame, probably going with the twin-stud system. I had indicative quotes about 6 months ago from a lot of the main suppliers (plans were very similar to this), and the twin stud wasn't as much of an increase as I'd feared.

Same as my note about regarding making space above the first floor for MVHR and other bits. I think the whole height attributed to the roof pitch is 1,600mm over a 6m width. Perhaps I could put a ceiling on the bathroom between bedrooms 3 and 4. The void created would be about 1.3m at its highest and 0.5m at the lowest side (with reasonable ceiling height in the bathroom)

 

Then @Blooda

 

I'm slowly trying to get rid of the pantry, definitely not my idea. If I could convince you know who that we don't need a pantry, then it would free up a bit more space for the MVHR to be downstairs an fairly central along with UFH manifold and extra storage cupboard. 

 

Like your idea about the guest suite becoming family bathroom with two entrances, will definitely look in to that. Bedrooms 3 & 4 are for our two young boys, so a Jack and Jill type is not an option unfortunately. Our idea was the the eldest would get this bathroom and the youngest would use the guest bathroom once he's old enough, since that would only be used occasionally by guests.

[JohnMo]

26 minutes ago, Owain1602 said:

swapping the W/C and the plant room.

That would work.

26 minutes ago, Owain1602 said:

wall like I've drawn in blue

Yes with doorway, it may need to be 30min fire door(?) someone else can confirm that.

 

26 minutes ago, Owain1602 said:

underfloor heating manifold was to be placed behind a cabinet in the boot room, could I run the feed/return lines through the first floor posi joints from the new location of the plan room

I would run in the floor.

 

26 minutes ago, Owain1602 said:

struggling a bit with the MVHR

Have a read up on cascade MVHR. Couple of bits attached.

 

Basics are you do extract as normal, but supply is pushed in to common areas and is cascaded by being pulled through other rooms. Example master bedroom - ensuite has extract. Air is drawn from hall through bedroom and dressing room. Bedroom is ventilated without a direct supply.

 

 

 

 

Brink-Multi-Air-Supply-systeem-Leaflet_4388762584830.pdf 615103-a-leaflet_multi_air_supply-en-dig-lr_5057512563596.pdf

[Owain1602]

Forgot to mention @JohnMo, the idea about marking it out at the beach is a great idea!

 

Having looked at swapping the plant room and downstairs W/C such that the ASHP pipes could come through the wall. I think it results in the same issue as the original location if I've then got to install a duct under the floor to bring the pipe to a more central UFH manifold, after they've come in through the wall for the HWC. 

 

What do you think of this proposal for positioning of key components. I've assumed dimensions for a large Zehnder Q600 MVHR unit, HWC with ⌀700m, with a ⌀1000mm for working area around it. We should be able to easily achieve a separation distance of 2m between supply and extract of MVHR (sketched them closer for drawing clarity).

From reading other MVHR posts, it sounds like having the external vents somewhere other than the roof is a benefit when they need clearing out regularly during the spring and summer. 

 

Presumably I can install a large distribution box/plenum inside the posi-joists of the first floor walkway (shown by red rectangle) such that the lengths to/from the rooms is more balanced? Would then have a run of ~6m of rigid pipework between the MVHR unit and the distribution plenums. I'm going to contact BCP and 21 Degrees for designs and quotations shortly but I want to make sure I'm giving them a reasonable starting point with the room layout.

 

I think I also want to turn the pantry in to a storage cupboard, for stuff we don't need frequent access. 

 

[JohnMo]

39 minutes ago, Owain1602 said:

think I also want to turn the pantry in to a storage cupboard, for stuff we don't need frequent access

I would just take the wall out between plant and pantry. Bigger plant room, come additional storage, come airing cupboard.

 

42 minutes ago, Owain1602 said:

We should be able to easily achieve a separation distance of 2m between supply and extract

Or just use a combination supply extract something like this

https://www.paulheatrecovery.co.uk/product/160mm-directional-external-combi-grille-for-mvhr-black/

 

[AartWessels]

Great project! Love it!

 

180m2 ground floor surface and struggling where to find space for things? Probably you need a redesign by a proper architect. Just think about it. People put all functions you have there in a full house half the size of your ground floor. 

Edited February 28 by AartWessels

[Owain1602]

Thanks @AartWessels

 

I don't agree with your logic: we can easily find space for everything, for example, I could have a 25m2 plant room and the job is done. But it's not the optimal solution for us (it might be for someone else).

 

 

[AartWessels]

7 hours ago, Owain1602 said:

Thanks @AartWessels

 

I don't agree with your logic: we can easily find space for everything, for example, I could have a 25m2 plant room and the job is done. But it's not the optimal solution for us (it might be for someone else).

 

 

I understand that. It needs to work for you. All I intend to say is that I think in the current design the plant room indeed suffers from very little space compared to the bootroom, pantry and utility room. The flow might be optimised as well. Getting to the utility and pantry seems to take you through a round tour of most of the ground floor, whereas I would normally expect a utility to be easily accessible. The boot room also seems to take you through the main entrance hall. However, I may be overlooking doors in your plans. 

 

I do believe an architect should be able to help you improve the balance of the room sizes and the flow. 

[Glenn]

Sorry for late feedback. First of all, many congrats on securing what looks like an exciting project! You will have great fun building it.

 

but I think everyone is being too polite, so I will be less so. Please please please get some architectural input. I see no joy in this design, only a high risk  of a huge amount of effort and time put into something that will end up being an echoey soulless box. You have a huge amount of space to use, have fun with it! You will be amazed at what a good architect can do to produce something ‘wow’. Let alone resolve the plumbing challenges of wages and water in all four quadrants and all the circulation challenges 

 

like I say, being brutal for effect. You’re quite within your rights to say “p..s off” in return

[Owain1602]

Thanks for your messages @AartWessels and @Glenn. 

 

These are plans that have been put together by a well-respected architectural firm. Whether they’re being hamstrung by our requirements, I don’t know. But as you can see, we’re not asking for too much in such a large space. 

 

Do you think I should instruct another firm to take a second look at the design?

[MR10]

2 hours ago, Owain1602 said:

 

Do you think I should instruct another firm to take a second look at the design?

@ETC may be able to help you with this?

[AartWessels]

4 hours ago, Owain1602 said:

Thanks for your messages @AartWessels and @Glenn. 

 

These are plans that have been put together by a well-respected architectural firm. Whether they’re being hamstrung by our requirements, I don’t know. But as you can see, we’re not asking for too much in such a large space. 

 

Do you think I should instruct another firm to take a second look at the design?

 

Considering the size, and not remembering if I've seen your budget, though I assume the project will come in around the £1m mark. So yes, I would definitely get an opinion from a different architect. 

I am no architect, but I echo (no pun intended) @Owain1602's words. I am missing the flow, I see huge open spaces and it has a high risk of being something massive without a soul. Now mind you, some people love that, and I do love large open spaces. I do however also value the proper flow in a house very much, as well as making the best of available space. 

 

The room I will use as a plant room pretty much has the same dimensions as yours. And that's tight. It serves a 115m2 house though. 

 

And then, as mentioned before, a proper design shouldn't just look great, it should serve its purpose. So when you get your groceries, what's the route from the car to where it needs to be. When you've been out with the dogs, where do you access the boot room without creating a mess in the house. 

How do you get the laundry to the washing machine. 

What's the distance and angles between hob, sink and fridge. 

And plenty more like those. 

Edited March 2 by AartWessels
Typos

[Owain1602]

@MR10

I have discussed this with ETC in the past (before I was comfortable to share the plans openly). He had some great ideas, but it was so different from the design we’d had in our head, that I couldn’t really process it.

[Glenn]

Hello, I am loath to believe that a registered architect would produce such a layout that ignored circulation, sun tracking, and practicalities like waste management. My own experience (small barn conversion) was the opposite - I was presented with multiple concepts based on the brief I provided the architects (brief was about feelings, not features) and each one blew me away. It was the process of rationalising your one that added value. In a similar vein, ETC kindly shared a sketch idea. Yes completely different, but great input into the mix, and some really interesting ideas.But no worries, trying some specifics for you to consider. 
 

circulation

as others have pointed out, shopping from front door to pantry. easy to resolve by splitting the kitchen wall bench for a gap into pantry. 

choke point at foot of stairs with the boot room. Accessing  snug past some hall doors in the way. Loads more.

 

water and waste management:

bathrooms in all 4 quadrants. The guest en-suite and family bathroom could easily be back to back. The downstairs WC could be on other side of hall to share with utility and plant room, or upstairs master en-suite moved 

 

fenestration:

a biggie. One window between 3 upstairs bathrooms. Tiny bedroom windows. Lounge window covered by sofa. I’ve admittedly no idea why any of the windows are placed where they are. Do they frame views?

 

Joy and drama and feelings and fun:

all that space, but how does it feel? What do you want to feel when sitting in the lounge? What is going to be the drama of the double height - eg  floor to vaulted ceiling bookcase with a wide corridor above for a library space (the bedrooms can give up some space). Definitely a wider corridor, for that luxurious feel. If you moved the guest en-suite you could then have a hatch in the bedroom where they could look down (and order coffee etc…)

 

again, i am sorry for being so harsh. But you are going to put so much of yourself into this build. It’s more than just a roof over your family’s head

 

 

[AartWessels]

2 hours ago, Owain1602 said:

@MR10

I have discussed this with ETC in the past (before I was comfortable to share the plans openly). He had some great ideas, but it was so different from the design we’d had in our head, that I couldn’t really process it.

 

That is what an architect is for, partially...

[Owain1602]

@Glenn thanks for your input. No need to apologise, that is the whole reason why I asked for feedback on the layout. 

 

I have a feeling in the back of my head that what we have isn’t quite right. 

 

You are right about the fenestration, I specifically mentioned this in my original post. 

 

We have options to centralised plumbing further, but I don’t want to compromise on room layout for the sake of running a few plastic pipes.

[DownSouth]

I know you’re looking at the fenestration.
 

 We ended up with four bedrooms, all in corners of the house. One has only one window, the other 3 have windows on both aspects. It makes a massive difference to the feel of those rooms, light coming in at different times of the day instead of just one aspect and one view. The other bedroom feels a bit pokey by comparison. I’d be trying to get another window into the master bedroom. 

 

Your dining room window looks small, the dining/kitchen looks to be in the wrong place. Will your kitchen get enough natural light? 
 

It looks very symmetrical. Did they design the outside first without any thought to how the light will affect each room?

 

We’ve got a similar shape but smaller footprint. I think the nicest view of it is one where all the windows are different shapes and sizes, designed to fit the function of each room.