Frameless Glass Balasturade and Building Control

[murat]

Hi All,

 

We have two large (2.3M) folding doors on the first floor which needs balustrade/juliette balcony.

 

We are getting glass juliette balcony without top restraint from the company supplies those doors. I will be bolted to the door itself with M8 bolts rather than the wall structure directly.

 

However, when we supplied the details to BC, as he requested to review in advance, he has come back with below;

 

Juliet Balcony Minimum Height

·         In a domestic setting, ensure the balustrade is a minimum height of 1.1m from floor finish to the top of the balustrade.

Juliet Balcony Balustrade Fixings

·         All fixings to balustrades with top resistant or top handrail restraint must be inspected.

·         All connections must be rigorous and bolted through to a structural inner leaf member. If in doubt, you can request the SE provides a calculation and/or specification.

·         Minimum fixing accepted, is 1No M10 bolt, bolted through a structural post, passing through a 50mm x 50mm x 2.5mm square or circular galvanised steel washer, and bolted.

 

Juliet Balconies with Top Restraint up to a span length of 2.5m – With a Max Floor to ceiling height of 3m.

·         Engineer/client to provide documents or calculations confirming the balustrade can resist the imposed horizontal loads it is spanning and provide connection calculations and/or specification for the fixings into the structure, as well as calculations and/or specification for the structure the balustrade is fixed to.

·         Minimum structural post strength accepted, that the balustrade is fixed to is, a triple 100mm x 50mm bolted together with M10 bolts @ 400 c/c vertically.

·         Top bolted fixing is to be a minimum of 0.9m above the finish floor level and a maximum of 1.2m above the finish floor level.   

 

Juliet Balconies with no Top Restraint

·         All Juliette Balcony balustrades which act as cantilevers (i.e. no top restraint) are to have structural calculations or documents provided by the SE, confirming the balustrade can resist the imposed horizontal loads.

·         Calculations provided must show how the overturning moment, due to the imposed horizontal loads at the base of the balustrade, is resisted, how the base of the balustrade is fixed into the structure and how the structure resists overturning moment.

 

 

His comments were if we follow the guidance above it would be acceptable, if not then we would need to justify it and supply calculations from competent structural engineer to make our case. Which he suggests a painfull/stresfull process.

 

We at least would like to get framless glass balustrade, if we can`t get the current option accepted (atatched).

 

Has anyone run into issues with BC when putting up a glass balustrade without top restraint ? What are your thoughts on this?

 

I would like to avoid anything to do with struclural engineer if possible.

 

Skyforce S10103 - OnLevel Ltd - Balustrade Testing Report v2.0.pdf

Edited February 4 by murat
fixed typos

[Conor]

Nope*. Two things are needed. Spec from manufacturer showing the force compliance, and a drawing from your designer showing what it's attached to. And suppose theidly, it constructed accordingly. Don't need calculations persay, just need to be shown on the main design that the SE has provided. This is what ours did and it's all annotated. 

 

 

*Yet to pass final inspection but BCO was happy with principle.

[nod]

I can never understand the 1150 

I worked on a premiership ground with glass balustrades at 900 5 meter drop onto the fans below Reasoning behind this is so people in wheelchairs can see over rather than watching the game through glass 

[Gus Potter]

2 hours ago, murat said:

Has anyone run into issues with BC when putting up a glass balustrade without top restraint ? What are your thoughts on this?

 

I would like to avoid anything to do with struclural engineer if possible.

Get an SE to design this properly.

 

2 hours ago, murat said:

We have two large (2.3M) folding doors on the first floor which needs balustrade/juliette balcony.

 That is a long span for a quasi cantilevered glass.  I think you know you are trying to find a way to bypass the ethos of the building regs.

 

2 hours ago, murat said:

I would like to avoid anything to do with struclural engineer if possible.

Stick you hand in your pocket and do it safely. Yeees I know you are maybe trying to stick to a budget.. but I think about the family you may later sell the house to.

 

2 hours ago, murat said:

will be bolted to the door itself with M8 bolts rather than the wall structure directly.

Now that is a bold concept! Remember though that the door frame has to transfer the balcony load to the structural frame.

 

I smell shite mate!

 

 

Edited February 5 by Gus Potter

[Conor]

For perspective for the type of structure you will need to fix to, one section of ours was fixed to a 203mm UC and the other into a 200x200x400mm reinforced concrete ring beam that was built on top of the walls, and doweled down in to the block work below. Bolts and rods were massive stainless steel affairs that cost a couple hundred quid. I think they were M12, one every 200mm. After seeing storm Eyoin batter them the other week, I'm happy with how it was done.

 

Your main issue with a 2.3m long piece of glass that is only fixed at each end is flex... The glass will deflect under load and there is a serious risk it could pop out of the channels. There's no real restraint in those fixings.

 

[murat]

11 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

Get an SE to design this properly.

 

 That is a long span for a quasi cantilevered glass.  I think you know you are trying to find a way to bypass the ethos of the building regs.

 

Stick you hand in your pocket and do it safely. Yeees I know you are maybe trying to stick to a budget.. but I think about the family you may later sell the house to.

 

Now that is a bold concept! Remember though that the door frame has to transfer the balcony load to the structural frame.

 

I smell shite mate!

 

 

Trust me doing things on a budget had long gone out of the window. If anything, those juliette balconies from the windows/doors provider is double the price of the ones i can get online (frameless). They cost 1.4K each + VAT.

I was just going with them for the convenience of using the same company for doors and juliette balcony.

 

I haven`t had the best experince with our SE, I m still trying to resolve his mess up on the steel connections. If i go back to him it takes ages to get him do something and then don`t even know if it is good enough . So i would like to avoid dealing with him and the architects (as they are the same company)

 

I m just looking at BC`s guide and then all those houses on instagram with frameless balustrade juliette balcoinies wondering to myself how they passed it

 

It might be a safer bet from an approval as well as health and safety point to cancel that order and go with top restraint version according to the comments. 

 

 

[Pocster]

We have a glass balcony ; floor and frameless upstands . 1m wide , 6m long - only supports are at the end . Installer did supply spec from their SE . BCO ? - don’t think he ever looked 😇😊

[lookseehear]

We are putting a frameless glass balustrade around our roof terrace for our extension, but I'm also struggling on speccing what it should fix into. I spoke to Q railing who manufacture the profiles that the glass fits into, and they said that I need to speak to an SE to make sure whatever it fixes into can take a 0.74kN/m load at 1100mm, but wouldn't help beyond that. I spoke to the SE who has been designing the steelwork for our renovation/extension and he didn't want to touch it, saying that I need to go back to the manufacturer.

 

I feel like the simplest answer is a reinforced concrete ringbeam sat on top of the outer blockwork, but I'm at a bit of a loss as to who can tell me whether or not this is compliant, or whether BCO will know that it's overspecified and sign it off. Maybe I need to find a new SE for this bit in particular? Any suggestions?

[Tetrarch]

I cannot recommend FH Brundle highly enough. Their custoner service is the best I have EVER come across. Not just the sales guys, but the logistics people, the delivery guys and the staff in the warehouse who allowed us inspect a product (from a high shelf) before we committed.

 

https://www.fhbrundle.co.uk/handrailing-and-balustrade/frameless-glass-balustrade?via_sb=true

 

My (side-mounted) internal stair balustrade is fixed to a 10mm steel plate bolted to a floor joist. The floor-mounted balustrade from FH Brundle may well do what you're looking for and at a fraction of the price

 

Regards

 

Tet   

[LnP]

+1 for FH Brundle. If you open an account you can sometimes get a discount.

[kandgmitchell]

On 04/02/2025 at 23:19, nod said:

I can never understand the 1150 

I worked on a premiership ground with glass balustrades at 900 5 meter drop onto the fans below Reasoning behind this is so people in wheelchairs can see over rather than watching the game through glass 

If the balustrade is no further than 530mm from fixed seating then the minimum height is 800mm in assembly buildings. Presumably it's that height for the very reason that sitting persons would have to look through the normal 1100mm height balustrade.

[nod]

2 hours ago, kandgmitchell said:

If the balustrade is no further than 530mm from fixed seating then the minimum height is 800mm in assembly buildings. Presumably it's that height for the very reason that sitting persons would have to look through the normal 1100mm height balustrade.

Exactly 

Trotting down the slope with an arm full of drinks 

[Roger440]

12 hours ago, Tetrarch said:

I cannot recommend FH Brundle highly enough. Their custoner service is the best I have EVER come across. Not just the sales guys, but the logistics people, the delivery guys and the staff in the warehouse who allowed us inspect a product (from a high shelf) before we committed.

 

https://www.fhbrundle.co.uk/handrailing-and-balustrade/frameless-glass-balustrade?via_sb=true

 

My (side-mounted) internal stair balustrade is fixed to a 10mm steel plate bolted to a floor joist. The floor-mounted balustrade from FH Brundle may well do what you're looking for and at a fraction of the price

 

Regards

 

Tet   

 

Another vote for FH Brundle. Their delivery charge is a tenner, seemingly regardless of what i have.

 

Then the drive from birmingham to mid wales to deliver. In their own vans.

 

Always responsive, always helpful.

 

It will never catch on....................................

[Roger440]

14 hours ago, lookseehear said:

We are putting a frameless glass balustrade around our roof terrace for our extension, but I'm also struggling on speccing what it should fix into. I spoke to Q railing who manufacture the profiles that the glass fits into, and they said that I need to speak to an SE to make sure whatever it fixes into can take a 0.74kN/m load at 1100mm, but wouldn't help beyond that. I spoke to the SE who has been designing the steelwork for our renovation/extension and he didn't want to touch it, saying that I need to go back to the manufacturer.

 

I feel like the simplest answer is a reinforced concrete ringbeam sat on top of the outer blockwork, but I'm at a bit of a loss as to who can tell me whether or not this is compliant, or whether BCO will know that it's overspecified and sign it off. Maybe I need to find a new SE for this bit in particular? Any suggestions?

 

It seems to me, skirting on the fringes of this stuff, that the BCO's answer to anything not completely standard is a report from some professional or other. At this rate, it will cost more in reports and calcs than to actually build.

 

I cant even fit some insulation to my wall without a suite of reports to keep BCO happy, that cost more than the insulation!

 

I wonder where it ends?

[Alan Ambrose]

Yeah the response to the Grenfell ‘not me guv, must be him’ finger pointing was to ‘demand responsibility’. Well once peeps thought about that for a minute, it meant anything remotely safety-related needed a professional … and most importantly their insurance. So insurance industry / paper pushing / friction gains a lot. Common sense and speed not so much.

 

Of course, sometimes you really do need a professional. In this case, maybe the route forward is to use a different SE. Yeah consistency is good, but this is a pretty stand-alone calc.

[kandgmitchell]

On 21/03/2025 at 18:57, nod said:

Exactly 

Trotting down the slope with an arm full of drinks 

Ah, there's always full height balustrading at the end of the access gangways as there is no fixed seating at this location.