Quality of cut slate

[Gaf]

Compared to the average person I’ve a tendency toward being a bit pernikety. Curious if the cuts on this slate for the flashing are generally good enough and I’d be OTT feeling like it’s a little rough looking. It’s a new build.

Edited December 8 by Gaf

[Redbeard]

Hmm...

 

Distance shot looks slightly more 'wibbly' than ideal.

In the close-up they do look a little like they have been gnawed rather than cut, but I suspect that you may find after a relatively short time that you have other things to worry about, and forget the cuts.

[nod]

Looks like they have gun filled around everything Which makes it look messy 

[scottishjohn]

quite sure once the edges weather it will not look that bad,

you could rub some oil or something on the edges to speed up the process

 the shaping   of the lead look worse to me

Edited December 8 by scottishjohn

[joe90]

They don’t look like real slate to me, natural slate when cut has a “chipped“ looking edge (if cut from the back as they should).

[makie]

45 minutes ago, joe90 said:

They don’t look like real slate to me, natural slate when cut has a “chipped“ looking edge (if cut from the back as they should).

It's not, it's cement fibre.

[Mr Punter]

The discs that you slide up and bend over are a giveaway.

[Iceverge]

Looks fine to me. 

 

Beware of comparing to manufactures brochures or Instagram. They photo shop out lots of the imperfections that are in any build. 

[Gaf]

Had no idea they weren’t real slate. Seems obvious now but I wasn’t aware there was a fake slate option. 
 

Option for real or fake never came up, drawings state only “slate” roof. 
 

Far too late in the game now but any idea what the all in cost difference is between these fake ones and real slate per m2? 

 

 

[joe90]

38 minutes ago, Gaf said:

drawings state only “slate” roof. 

Should have said “slate effect “ roof.

[Redbeard]

1 hour ago, Gaf said:

drawings state only “slate” roof. 

 

But what did the roofer's quote say? If there is any doubt whatsoever in your mind as to whether you have been charged for real slates or 'fake slates' I would argue that it is not 

1 hour ago, Gaf said:

Far too late in the game now

 

Dig a bit.

[Gaf]

2 hours ago, joe90 said:

Should have said “slate effect “ roof.

As in, if it said "slate" then the general consensus would be that it meant natural slate? Only if it said "slate effect" would it have meant these cement fibre slates?

 

1 hour ago, Redbeard said:

 

But what did the roofer's quote say? If there is any doubt whatsoever in your mind as to whether you have been charged for real slates or 'fake slates' I would argue that it is not 

 

Dig a bit.

It was done through the overall tender price. Didn't get a specific breakdown on the slates, but an overall costing on the roof and roof structure. Spec document states to refer to the drawings for the roof detail. 

[Redbeard]

Are you able to cut and paste the relevant section from the tender doc? The ££ does not matter if you are reticent. If the tender said 'install a slate roof' I think it could be hard to argue that 'mock-slates' fit the bill (though having said that if I wanted a Welsh slate roof I would say so, or ditto Spanish. I have absolutely no idea if any of this would stand up in an argument. Who oversaw the tendering? An architect or other advisor, or you?

[Gaf]

3 hours ago, Redbeard said:

Are you able to cut and paste the relevant section from the tender doc? The ££ does not matter if you are reticent. If the tender said 'install a slate roof' I think it could be hard to argue that 'mock-slates' fit the bill (though having said that if I wanted a Welsh slate roof I would say so, or ditto Spanish. I have absolutely no idea if any of this would stand up in an argument. Who oversaw the tendering? An architect or other advisor, or you?

 

Architect provided a 20 page specification document for the tender process. We managed it ourselves and have a solicitor approved legal contract stating that all works will be completed as per the specification document and as per the drawings (all 20+ drawing are specifically listed on this contract).

 

Specific area related to the roof:

 

“1.5.17. Roof Structure
Refer to drawings.”

“1.5.18. Roof finishes
Roof covering in accordance with the drawings and manufacturers details. Supply and install all roof finishes and components, flashings, soakers, etc. as required to complete the roof covering as indicated on the drawings and in accordance with all the current standards and forms of construction.
Include for roof vents, roof lights, chimney flashings, soil vent pipe flashings, etc. as necessary to complete the entire roof.”

 

The drawings state: “Slate tiles on SW battens”.

[Redbeard]

w-e-e-e-ll.... I would contend that you do not have slates. I would not call ('proper') slates 'tiles', myself, and some might argue that a 'slate tile' is a mock slate (though I have never seen that terminology used).

 

I know nothing of your timescale (has the contractor left site; are the works practically complete?) but I would raise the issue with them and ask for their response. 

 

[makie]

19 minutes ago, Redbeard said:

w-e-e-e-ll.... I would contend that you do not have slates. I would not call ('proper') slates 'tiles', myself, and some might argue that a 'slate tile' is a mock slate (though I have never seen that terminology used).

 

I know nothing of your timescale (has the contractor left site; are the works practically complete?) but I would raise the issue with them and ask for their response. 

 

They are slates, just not natural.

[Gaf]

Just took a look at our planning permission drawings and they state “Natural Slate” for the roof. This looks like the architect didn’t properly translate that detail from the planning drawings to the construction drawings. Wasn’t picked up by us as we had no idea slates could be faux slates so didn’t even register that they needed to include the term “natural”.

[joe90]

4 minutes ago, Gaf said:

Just took a look at our planning permission drawings and they state “Natural Slate” for the roof.

Ooh er, that could mean the planners might reject it (if prompted 🥷)

[torre]

29 minutes ago, Gaf said:

Wasn’t picked up by us as we had no idea slates could be faux slates so didn’t even register that they needed to include the term “natural”.

In the absence of any qualifying terms I think most people would, like you, expect 'slate' to mean natural slate and in the case of 'slate tiles' even more so, because in that case slate is referring to the material and tile is referring to the format, so I'd query with your builder why they've not used the material specified.

If it goes unnoticed by planners then you may just have to mark it down to experience that they've substituted a cheaper material, but console yourself it still looks good in your photos by the way.

 

Was the planning permission included in the documents sent out to tender? Any explicit reference to natural slate may help you down the line in any worst case, but I think the common interpretation of 'slate' would be in your favour anyway

[Gaf]

10 hours ago, torre said:

In the absence of any qualifying terms I think most people would, like you, expect 'slate' to mean natural slate and in the case of 'slate tiles' even more so, because in that case slate is referring to the material and tile is referring to the format, so I'd query with your builder why they've not used the material specified.

If it goes unnoticed by planners then you may just have to mark it down to experience that they've substituted a cheaper material, but console yourself it still looks good in your photos by the way.

 

Was the planning permission included in the documents sent out to tender? Any explicit reference to natural slate may help you down the line in any worst case, but I think the common interpretation of 'slate' would be in your favour anyway

 

None of the planning drawings were included in the tender process.

 

Yeah I’m really torn on this. It looks well now but I had no idea they come with 10-20 year colour guarantees so could start to lose colour overtime, and could start to curl at the edges over time. Jesus. If I’d have known any of this I would have stayed a mile away from them. It’s our final home so I’m all for putting the money in upfront to have it done, not be blowing another 20k plus when Im at retirement age to replace faded tiles.

[Iceverge]

Maybe it's not exactly what you had pictured in your minds eye but I would try to keep a balanced view.

 

The house I grew up in house has manmade slates since 1951 and they're still up there, day in day out keeping the weather at bay. They have gone somewhat grey and are more brittle than new but they've never leaked. 

 

A similar aged house in the locality had theirs painted recently with specialist paint to smarten them up and reinforce them somewhat. 

 

Natural slate isn't without it's issues either. Some of the imported stuff can be of extremely variable quality resulting in lots of waste and high fitting bills. Welsh slate is very very expensive. It's far heavier and will stress the roof timbers more. 

 

We put fiber cement on our roof, even paid a little extra for the fancier type. Complete waste of money. Nobody ever noticed. I don't think anyone will spend too much time looking at yours if I'm honest. 

 

The builder is running a business and will naturally tender to the most competitive specification. I don't think you can really blame them. Just make sure the price tag reflects what you have and spend the savings on something more important like a comfy chair or a boiling water tap. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 09:53 by Iceverge

[Redoctober]

1 hour ago, Iceverge said:

The house I grew up in house has manmade slates since 1951 and they're still up there, day in day out keeping the weather at bay. They have gone somewhat grey and are more brittle than new but they've never leaked. 

A similar aged house in the locality had theirs painted recently with specialist paint to smarten them up and reinforce them somewhat. 

Natural slate isn't without it's issues either. Some of the imported stuff can be of extremely variable quality resulting in lots of waste and high fitting bills. Welsh slate is very very expensive. It's far heavier and will stress the roof timbers more. 

We put fiber cement on our roof, even paid a little extra for the fancier type. Complete waste of money. Nobody ever noticed. I don't think anyone will spend too much time looking at yours if I'm honest. 

 

Just want to say that I found this post from @Iceverge to be a very reassuring post 👍

Clearly @Gaf is concerned with the final product and at such times a balanced view, with real life experiences can often help to keep one grounded. 

It is human nature to comment in the negative the majority of the time, so it is important to recognise more worthy posts.

[Gaf]

3 hours ago, Iceverge said:

Maybe it's not exactly what you had pictured in your minds eye but I would try to keep a balanced view.

 

The house I grew up in house has manmade slates since 1951 and they're still up there, day in day out keeping the weather at bay. They have gone somewhat grey and are more brittle than new but they've never leaked. 

 

A similar aged house in the locality had theirs painted recently with specialist paint to smarten them up and reinforce them somewhat. 

 

Natural slate isn't without it's issues either. Some of the imported stuff can be of extremely variable quality resulting in lots of waste and high fitting bills. Welsh slate is very very expensive. It's far heavier and will stress the roof timbers more. 

 

We put fiber cement on our roof, even paid a little extra for the fancier type. Complete waste of money. Nobody ever noticed. I don't think anyone will spend too much time looking at yours if I'm honest. 

 

The builder is running a business and will naturally tender to the most competitive specification. I don't think you can really blame them. Just make sure the price tag reflects what you have and spend the savings on something more important like a comfy chair or a boiling water tap. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

100% take your point on keeping a balanced view. It’s why I often post here to get perspective on things 👍 And completely agree that the builder is in business and this isn’t a charity so do understand his need to tender appropriately.

 

The build is well on at this stage and I’ve found the process quite tiring so there is an element of lethargy kicking in. We spent a lot of time at the design stage being quite specific about things so we could just consistently direct the builder to the drawings. But things still cropped up that didn’t match the drawings: two waste pipes in wrong positions requiring concrete floor to be torn up and damaged UFH pipes replaced, all dormer windows were done differently than drawings requiring all joinery work to be redone, our landing wasn’t done to match the drawings and has meant our stairs now has gone from 36 degree angle to 40 degree angle, stone work was requested as dry bed but was done with mortar showing, driveway is approx 1-2m too thin than on drawings so we can’t get the turning circle to reverse cars out, an internal door that we repeatedly specifically stated we wanted in a certain position was put in a different position. So when I realised these slates weren’t what we expected it feels like another aspect of the build that’s awry.

[Iceverge]

I share your grief. I really do. 

 

In reality most domestic house builders tend to treat drawings as advisory rather than mandatory. 

 

They certainly don't spend the hours pouring over every detail like you and I have done. We had windows, walls, waste pipes, ducts, doors, stairs in the wrong place after I spent countless hours fretting every mm when I was drawing it. 

 

On most jobs, close enough is good enough, but to a self builder with an eye for detail it's infuriating. The only way to ensure it's done to your satisfaction is appropriate daily briefing to the trades, on the clock of course, and regular supervision. If I was to build again, I would lock the site and not allow anyone on it without my oversight. 

 

It took me about 2 years to calm down from all the frustrations like the ones you shared but now I don't think about them(much!) . I just get on with life in what is by any standards, a very very good house.

 

Your house won't be perfect, but be fair on yourself, it's probably still much better that almost everyone else's. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[joe90]

1 hour ago, Gaf said:

two waste pipes in wrong positions requiring concrete floor to be torn up and damaged UFH pipes replaced, all dormer windows were done differently than drawings requiring all joinery work to be redone, our landing wasn’t done to match the drawings and has meant our stairs now has gone from 36 degree angle to 40 degree angle, stone work was requested as dry bed but was done with mortar showing, driveway is approx 1-2m too thin than on drawings so we can’t get the turning circle to reverse cars out, an internal door that we repeatedly specifically stated we wanted in a certain position was put in a different position.

That’s quite a list, I would be pi##ed off with that builder, makes me grateful for the brilliant builder I had. However I think you need to decide if getting the builder to put this right (replace whole roof with proper slate) is worth the grief you will suffer on top of the nonsense you have already suffered. The type of slate effect tiles installed are used a lot and as others have said will last a long time. I would however tell the builder (with a full list of his errors) that you are not pleased with his work and what compensation is he willing to offer (which will be cheaper to him than correcting his errors.)