Rookie with longshot dreams of building on old orchard in AONB

[ACF]

Hi, I've just joined and have been reading lots of posts on here with increasing despondency. If anyone is interested in commenting on our situation, please feel free and thank you, even if it's relentlessly negative. We may as well be realistic.

 

We live in an AONB on an old fruit farm with almost 3 acres. The old orchard is virtually non-existent now (not our neglect, it was last in full swing in the 1960s and had only a handful of gnarled old cherry trees left when we arrived 4 years ago) so it's effectively just a large garden with an area of scrubland backing onto farmland in a linear style village. We'd love to divide it into two and build a low key, probably barn style or timber framed eco home on the old orchard site, replanting a large number of the fruit trees and putting in appropriate plantings for biodiversity, selling the main house with an acre or so to fund it. Unfortunately, because there is no evidence of so much as a shed ever having been on the actual orchard site, I'm struggling to tick any of the boxes the planners would likely demand. I've done a lot of reading online but haven't yet approached a planning consultant as I don't want to waste time and money if it's a complete no-go. There would be no impact whatsoever on any neighbours as the site is very well shielded by mature hedgerows and it wouldn't detract from the beauty of the landscape either. A couple of properties in the same AONB have been granted permission in recent years for large, impressive new builds to replace tiny, ugly structures, not even a dwelling in one case, on the basis of replacement - pretty tenuous in view of the scale but still to be welcomed in my view. I just find it infuriating that a sensitive, potentially enhancing project like ours would likely be blocked as overdevelopment when it would be comparatively smaller in scale and of no consequence to anyone else. Reinstating the orchard would be a plus, however I guess the argument would be, why can't you do that anyway? Any thoughts from those who've experienced similar would be very welcome, thanks

[ProDave]

Post a site layout and how it sits with other houses and the village itself, suitably anonymised, and someone may give a stab at how likely anything might be.

[nod]

I think that a few years ago you could put a post on like this (With a site plan) and someone in the know would give you a definitive answer Usually no chance But with the targets that this government are setting Nowhere is safe 

[ACF]

Map 4 pdf.pdf

[ACF]

I've posted the above image showing the layout of our part of the village - it's very spread out. Might be of use for comments. Thanks.

[G and J]

Quick thoughts.....what does your local planning guidance have to say on the subject of infill or within/without village envelope/boundaries.....where does your house fall? Also does your planning authority have a "cluster policy"? Maybe unpalatable but I've seen situations such as this where a small development of houses is allowed around an existing house with one larger plot to be retained for a singleton property. Some friends did this but it was a long haul to get through.......

 

 

[joe90]

I think that’s a brilliant site for a new build but I had to fight and even go to appeal for a replacement build…. (Bloody planners). The old orchard is non productive so almost brownfield 🤣 . We are short of housing in this country but planners don’t get it. I would find a good local planning consultant and get their take on it. 

[Jilly]

Read ‘How a planner got planning’ on here, it’s very useful. 
I think you should have a sporting chance, especially since the increase in housing targets. 
It might be long haul, but you have nothing to lose as you own the site.

Have you thought about a pre application meeting? People on here have had good and bad experiences with these. 

[Russdl]

That’s got to be worth a chat with a planning consultant. Looks ideal from that image. 

[ACF]

On 05/12/2024 at 18:51, G and J said:

Quick thoughts.....what does your local planning guidance have to say on the subject of infill or within/without village envelope/boundaries.....where does your house fall? Also does your planning authority have a "cluster policy"? Maybe unpalatable but I've seen situations such as this where a small development of houses is allowed around an existing house with one larger plot to be retained for a singleton property. Some friends did this but it was a long haul to get through.......

 

 

Thanks for your reply, I haven't seen anything in the local plan that mentions a cluster policy but it might be worth me asking the question. I suspect any avenue in would still be a long shot and a long haul but I'm not giving up just yet!

[ACF]

On 05/12/2024 at 20:11, joe90 said:

I think that’s a brilliant site for a new build but I had to fight and even go to appeal for a replacement build…. (Bloody planners). The old orchard is non productive so almost brownfield 🤣 . We are short of housing in this country but planners don’t get it. I would find a good local planning consultant and get their take on it. 

Yes - wouldn't it be nice if it was so easily designated! I think you're right, it needs someone with vision and local experience so I'm sifting through lots of other applications to see which consultants seem to have been most successful. Thanks for your reply.

[ACF]

On 06/12/2024 at 06:45, Russdl said:

That’s got to be worth a chat with a planning consultant. Looks ideal from that image. 

Thanks, it's perfect in my imagination 😁

[ACF]

On 05/12/2024 at 22:30, Jilly said:

Read ‘How a planner got planning’ on here, it’s very useful. 
I think you should have a sporting chance, especially since the increase in housing targets. 
It might be long haul, but you have nothing to lose as you own the site.

Have you thought about a pre application meeting? People on here have had good and bad experiences with these. 

Thanks for the recommendations, I will take a look at that. Yes, pre-app would be an option, though we had a bad experience with this previously, not on a residential project but on a business application. Like most planning teams it seems, ours has a crazy turnover of personnel and the process has been arduous to say the least. The pre-app was very encouraging but it passed through so many pairs of hands that the momentum just waned. I suspect if we just ask the question with a pre-app the answer will be no but if we're able to build an argument it might just be a maybe... (and probably a no later down the line!).

[BotusBuild]

What is the square that is in the old orchard, just below the Old Orchard pin? Looks manmade. Walls of an old building perhaps?

[Alan Ambrose]

You could find out what the 'settlement boundary' looks like if it is a 'settlement' - villages are, odd clusters not so much. If it's in, that's a big help.

[Russdl]

If I were you I’d go straight to the planning consultant. Planning Consultants are frequently ex planners (ours certainly was) so it’s all a bit incestuous and they know the right words to use etc. Our planning was accepted without issues.
 

In the same quaint-ish village as us, about 100m away as the crow flies, an application was being submitted for a similar contemporary house that would be tucked away out of site of the locals. One of the objectors actually hired the same consultant that we used to fight the application. The application was refused and it was amazing to read the Planning Consultants submission to object to the application which was pretty much the polar opposite of what she had written to support our application.  
 

My only dealings with her was for our planning app back in 2018 and she was one of the only “professionals” that actually did what she said she could do (but no guarantee) in a timely and efficient manner. According to her website she works anywhere in the south, I can send you a link if you like. 

[Great_scot_selfbuild]

Our challenge was different (aren't they all), but reading your situation it sounds similarly difficult to my experience at the outset, so I feel like there is relevance in the strategy and approach I took. Here was my approach:

Manage your expectations, risk appetite and budget - essential first step imho. Our expectations were: assume 12mths to get a refusal, prepare appeal (6mths), then go for appeal (18-24mths) whilst submitting second application but in general assuming it will take the worst case duration. 

Planning consultant (judged it to be a '50:50' chance). Initial visit and assessment cost £250.

Architect (having approached a PC with local experience gave us a lot of credibility here).

Developed a design, got all the possible surveys done and prepared an application. Our architect made a scale (physical) model - not specifically requested, but OMG it proved valuable!

Wrote to all neighbours PRIOR to submitting application and local conservation group etc. Met those that wanted to and answered any/all questions (some had very strong objections, but our transparency and honesty were appreciated; they still objected, but we were fine with that and were happy that we could discuss it in person first). The physical model was invaluable in conveying the proposal to the neighbours and conservation group (much better than a CGI, which can appear too realistic and lacks the ability for ambiguity/interpretation.

Submitted application...

 

Lessons - engaging the neighbours in advance was one of the best things we did; it was based on how we would want to be treated if we were neighbours. For what it's worth, I'd take one of 2 approaches:

 

Option 1 - no initial outlay

Write to neighbours - set out situation and proposal. Although technically neighbour comments only carry weight if they are raising 'material planning considerations', the reality is that they can generate a lot of negative feel over a development and this can influence planners and/or committees.

Some basic site information/maps/layout will help.

Then approach planning consultant and the process above. Having some indication of the public opinion will be useful to the planning consultant and architect.

Time is a great healer for people coming to terms with something that they may initially be vehemently against. The time it takes you to do the other activity will help them be more accepting of your design and detail when you go back to them prior to submission.

 

 

Option 2 - Planning consultant fee initial cost

Planning consultant initial site assessment.

Broadly as above.

 

Good luck in your approach.

Edited December 9 by Great_scot_selfbuild

[Jilly]

Definitely a good idea discussing things with neighbours and taking account of their comments. We actually had letters of support, which was nice. 

[ACF]

On 09/12/2024 at 17:15, Russdl said:

If I were you I’d go straight to the planning consultant. Planning Consultants are frequently ex planners (ours certainly was) so it’s all a bit incestuous and they know the right words to use etc. Our planning was accepted without issues.
 

In the same quaint-ish village as us, about 100m away as the crow flies, an application was being submitted for a similar contemporary house that would be tucked away out of site of the locals. One of the objectors actually hired the same consultant that we used to fight the application. The application was refused and it was amazing to read the Planning Consultants submission to object to the application which was pretty much the polar opposite of what she had written to support our application.  
 

My only dealings with her was for our planning app back in 2018 and she was one of the only “professionals” that actually did what she said she could do (but no guarantee) in a timely and efficient manner. According to her website she works anywhere in the south, I can send you a link if you like. 

I'd really appreciate that, thank you very much

[ACF]

On 09/12/2024 at 20:17, Great_scot_selfbuild said:

Our challenge was different (aren't they all), but reading your situation it sounds similarly difficult to my experience at the outset, so I feel like there is relevance in the strategy and approach I took. Here was my approach:

Manage your expectations, risk appetite and budget - essential first step imho. Our expectations were: assume 12mths to get a refusal, prepare appeal (6mths), then go for appeal (18-24mths) whilst submitting second application but in general assuming it will take the worst case duration. 

Planning consultant (judged it to be a '50:50' chance). Initial visit and assessment cost £250.

Architect (having approached a PC with local experience gave us a lot of credibility here).

Developed a design, got all the possible surveys done and prepared an application. Our architect made a scale (physical) model - not specifically requested, but OMG it proved valuable!

Wrote to all neighbours PRIOR to submitting application and local conservation group etc. Met those that wanted to and answered any/all questions (some had very strong objections, but our transparency and honesty were appreciated; they still objected, but we were fine with that and were happy that we could discuss it in person first). The physical model was invaluable in conveying the proposal to the neighbours and conservation group (much better than a CGI, which can appear too realistic and lacks the ability for ambiguity/interpretation.

Submitted application...

 

Lessons - engaging the neighbours in advance was one of the best things we did; it was based on how we would want to be treated if we were neighbours. For what it's worth, I'd take one of 2 approaches:

 

Option 1 - no initial outlay

Write to neighbours - set out situation and proposal. Although technically neighbour comments only carry weight if they are raising 'material planning considerations', the reality is that they can generate a lot of negative feel over a development and this can influence planners and/or committees.

Some basic site information/maps/layout will help.

Then approach planning consultant and the process above. Having some indication of the public opinion will be useful to the planning consultant and architect.

Time is a great healer for people coming to terms with something that they may initially be vehemently against. The time it takes you to do the other activity will help them be more accepting of your design and detail when you go back to them prior to submission.

 

 

Option 2 - Planning consultant fee initial cost

Planning consultant initial site assessment.

Broadly as above.

 

Good luck in your approach.

Thank you so much, a very valuable and valid insight. I think you're so right about the neighbours too, it's a very co-operative community and the environment means a lot to those who live here so I'd very much want to present it as enhancing the landscape and our ability to manage the land better, which is heartfelt. We're not just being opportunist, we really want to live here. Thanks for the advice and your experience.

 

[ACF]

On 09/12/2024 at 16:43, BotusBuild said:

What is the square that is in the old orchard, just below the Old Orchard pin? Looks manmade. Walls of an old building perhaps?

That was a 'natural pool' that our predecessors had installed but it was such poor workmanship it was a liability so we filled it back in. Not a building, I'm afraid.

[ACF]

On 09/12/2024 at 22:04, Jilly said:

Definitely a good idea discussing things with neighbours and taking account of their comments. We actually had letters of support, which was nice. 

Yes, I think that sounds like a very good idea, and fortunately we get on well with everyone around here - at least we do now!

[ACF]

On 09/12/2024 at 17:02, Alan Ambrose said:

You could find out what the 'settlement boundary' looks like if it is a 'settlement' - villages are, odd clusters not so much. If it's in, that's a big help.

Thank you, I'll look into that.

[ToughButterCup]

We had a very similar challenge. Own the land, part of which is / was an orchard. We built on that old orchard.  'Chocolate Box' countryside: lots of opposition. Getting on with people , while useful, is a periforal issue. Its the quality of the support - or objections - that count. The key theme is is whether the objection (or support)  is Material to the Application

 

Local Planner is the next stop. Choose carefully. That isn't easy.

[Russdl]

2 hours ago, ACF said:

I'd really appreciate that, thank you very much

Here you go, and if she can’t help she may well be able to point you to someone closer who can. Good luck. 

Jackson Planning

 

Ah, I’ve just reread her website and she does the south of England but stops at Sussex, it still may be worth getting in touch though, can’t hurt.