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Full plans application rejected twice by hillingdon council... at wits end


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Hi,

I am at wits end about the building regs full plans application.. It is a domestic one where we were planning to demolish existing house partially and build a new home... initial application took more than 10 weeks and after relentless follow ups via the standard email got a refusal stating

"The plans are defective in as much that they do not provide sufficient information to show that the work

to be carried out will comply with the Building Regulations 2010. (Regulation 14).

Additional information is required to be submitted in relation to the following:

B1 Means of warning and escape

B4 External fire spread

G3 Hot water supply and systems

H3 Rainwater drainage

L1 Conservation of fuel and power

M4(1) Category 1: Visitable dwellings

O1 Overheating mitigation

Q1 Unauthorised access

RA1: Gigabit-ready physical infrastructure

RA2: Connection to gigabit-capable network

2 PART A: STRUCTURE, A1: LOADING:

You are advised that the structural calculations that were deposited with your plans are under separate

consideration and you will be informed as quickly as possible of any revisions and/or additional

information that may be required". 

 

Although everything was provided in the initial application, we resent the docs again, now we have received an email saying it is also likely to be rejected..

 

"The plan checker has assessed your resubmission and the recommendation is currently being reviewed by management (as part of our sign off process). Unfortunately I am advised that there are still concerns with the submission and it is likely to be a further rejection of plans. We will look to get the decision notice to you as soon as possible in the coming days so that you can review and consider next steps."

 

There is no phone number to contact and our request for a f2f meeting with the bco is no response...

 

Should we just sell the house and give up. this is becoming a nightmare.. it has been a year since we received planning permission and are no way closer to starting the build... please help...

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It’s probably time to bite the bullet and get a planning consultant to submit for you Planning consultants normally run rings at round planners Planners seem to enjoy doing what they are doing to you 

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1 hour ago, helpless resident said:

...

Should we just sell the house and give up. this is becoming a nightmare..

 

Welcome to the Nightmare Club.  Self building is first and foremost a test of character. 

 

All the Planner is doing, is giving you a Snagging List of the things you need to do.

Do them.

 

Or buy somebody's services to have them done for you.

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Who is doing the Full Plans Bldg Regs application? You, or a consultant on your behalf? Who will be doing the work? A Main Contractor under the supervision of an architect, 'architectural worker' or Project manager, or a series of separate trades supervised by ... whom?

 

Are you of the opinion that you (or someone on your behalf) has supplied all the info that BC could possibly need to know on all the items listed above, or are you aware that further detail is required?

 

You *could* (I believe) do the works on a Building Notice (henceforth BN) , which would mean that you could start certain works 2 days after sending the application (and the money - I am not sure what would happen re the fee you have already paid. A BN puts the majority (if not all) of the risk on you. It is usually used for 'lower-risk' work ( I have used them a lot for IWI, EWI, extensions, window replacement) but if you are really sure of your ground (and really sure of your contractor(s)) you could consider going this route. They will still want supplementary info, including structural calcs etc. It seems the most frustrating issue for you is that they have not been specific on the alleged 'shortcomings' - you just have the headings. Is that correct? I assume they feel (but have not told you *how* they feel) that your 'depositions' are insufficient. If that's the case then sending them again may not have helped much. It must be so frustrating for you that they won't engage in debate.

 

N.B. I have never used a BN for a major job like yours sounds to be, but I do not know that you cannot. Lots of past discussions on here re BN, I think.

 

I wish you much more success than you have had so far.

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So you have a Building Control that are being a PITA. As @Redbeard says the alternative AIUI is a building notice - you don't have to submit plans at all. IMHO you could do this by employing a design and build contractor with a specification that clearly identifies that it is the contractors responsibility to comply with regs and achieve a completion certificate. Stage payments will be paid in accordance with satisfactory inspections and sign off. You'll pay more passing the design risk to the contractor, but it could be a solution. I've used D&B on a BN for a tiny extension, but it was a very straightforward project.

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Thank you all for your responses. We’ve already secured a building contractor, and we’ve also engaged a structural engineer and architect who completed the detailed drawings, structural calculations, and other documents for the Building Control submission. Even they are baffled by the issues (?) raised by the council.

 

As part of our resubmission, we provided a detailed response addressing each concern raised, clearly indicating where these points are addressed in the drawings and documents. Now, we're just waiting for the second refusal notice, hoping it will clarify wtf is going on.

 

Securing planning permission took a grueling 3 years of perseverance, and this process has already stretched to a year. No wonder there’s a housing crisis in this country…

 

Question: If we decide to forfeit the fees already paid and opt for a private approved inspector, could this potentially cause friction with the council's building control officer, and would we face issues during the completion etc?

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Ah, so they were submitted to your local authority.  
 

My understanding is that if one opts for a private company BC then the local authority are out of the loop. 
 

Did the architect recommend using the LA?

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The architect did not recommend.. i just assumed council is the only way to go and in our discussions with the architect when i said we will submit to hillingdon council, he just went with it. He also didnt recommend any private options, possibly he assumed i made an informed choice :( i didnt even know there was this private option before this nightmare started... aarghh...

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1 hour ago, helpless resident said:

The architect did not recommend.. i just assumed council is the only way to go and in our discussions with the architect when i said we will submit to hillingdon council, he just went with it. He also didnt recommend any private options, possibly he assumed i made an informed choice :( i didnt even know there was this private option before this nightmare started... aarghh...

Ah. A Donald Rumsfeld moment then.  Those are the ones I fear the most!

 

“Experience is something you don’t get until just after you need it”.  Sigh.

 

I guess it’s a pick yourself up, dust yourself off, try and view the lost funds as the cost of experience, and start working with a more helpful organisation instead.  
 

However, that doesn’t mean that the issues they are referring to aren’t valid, so they still may need design changes.

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Whilst undoubtedly some of the councils ‘reasoning’ will be valid you need to understand the rules of “ knobbing the donkey “

Councils like this game . Objective being you give up and walk away . Play the game . Give them all the shit they want ( even if you’ve sent it before ) . Any supposed reasons for refusal ; no matter how completely (expletive deleted)ing pointless they are ; you respond with a valid answer .

You will be knobbing the donkey frequently- get use to it 😉

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Quote

Mr. Rusty, on the alternative you have suggested, is this something any builder could offer?

It depends - not all will want to. In any construction it is essential that the client understands who is carrying the design risk. If you employ a designer and give the builder a set of plans to build to, then it's you carrying the risk. Your builder has no contractual relationship with your designer, so if the design goes wrong because the drawings are incorrect, the builder can wash his hands of liability "your drawings, your design", not my problem", leaving you to take it up with your designer who might say "I don't agree with the builder, nothing wrong with my drawings".

It is for this reason that many contracts, certainly in the commercial world, are "design and build". The client produces their specification and technical requirements, but the design and the build is carried out by the builder who directly employs the architects and designers.

 

e.g. from an NEC3 ECC contract (which is the first one that comes to hand on my desk) "The contractor provides the works in accordance with the works information, The contractor designs the parts of the works which the works information states he is to design".

 

From the clients point of view it's a very clean way of working since all the risk is with the builder, but obviously the client has to pay the extra for the risk the builder is taking on.

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>>> we’ve also engaged a structural engineer and architect who completed the detailed drawings, structural calculations, and other documents for the Building Control submission. Even they are baffled by the issues (?) raised by the council.

 

If they are meant to be preparing documents that satisfy (amongst others) BC - then the responsibility rests on them to amend the drawings and submissions to satisfy ... BC. Otherwise they shouldn't be paid for their job.

 

That is, push the responsibility back onto your archiitect & SE.

 

In other news, I think there's some mileage in taking the docs you do have to a private BC before engaging them and asking them whether they are happy with those docs. It's a free market and you can buy your BC services from any organisation you like.

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On 21/10/2024 at 07:58, helpless resident said:

I am at wits end about the building regs full plans application..

No wonder, that is a big but not unexpected list of comments.

 

However at times a game is played at your expense. BC folk get holidays and are adept at kicking the can down the road. It can be fearful for the public! I do this as a day job..make submission to BC.. lets leave it at that.

 

Don't throw in the towel at the moment. From experience a lot of these things can often be resolvedvery easily.

 

Your Architect should know how to navigate this common problem. If you feel you want a second and broad opinion then post all of the info and drawings you have on BH but sanitise it so you can't be identified. By all I MEAN all as there are folk that will dedicate time to helping you, some of us do this as a day job so you'll get probono professional advice.

 

Now once you resubmit there is a way of wording your response where you can back BC into a corner where they need to talk to you face to face or on the phone. You turn the tables on them.. again this is part of the game.

 

Keep you head up and forget about giving in.

 

If you get stuck PM me, I can spend 15 min on the phone with you if you need a bit of probono advice and hopefully lift you spirits.

 

 

Edited by Gus Potter
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