Piling nightmare

[Jodie]

I live adjacent to where building work has commenced to build a small two storey property. 

We were served with a party wall agreement, as 5 of the piles are within 3 metres of our home and others are 6 metres, the furthest being around 14 metres. We appointed a joint chartered surveyor with the builder. 

The piling has differed to that stated in the piling RAMS of a depth of 4-5 metres, in that the piles are going much further into the ground than first anticipated, with all going as much as 20m below ground level. There are a total of thirty piles in a very small area. It has taken 11 days so far.

 

It goes without saying that there is significantly more piling undertaken to that which was proposed and has caused a significant level of additional vibration to our property.

 

I feel the builder is inconsiderate. He is piling 20 metres deep, causing intense vibration every second of every working day, up to 8 hours, for the last two weeks. We have cracks around our window frames and soil deposits appearing in between the block paving path. 
The continuous pulsating under the house and shaking within every room makes me feel sick with worry.

I feel powerless to do anything and don’t know what repercussions we will have in the future. Can anyone advise?

[TommoUK]

Speak to the party wall surveyor and raise your concerns. Any damage caused to your property is the responsibility of your neighbour and the surveyors job is ensure any damage is recorded and rectified.

[MikeSharp01]

A small 2 story property needs 20m piles! Sounds a lot to me - do they need to get to bedrock?

 

 

[Mr Punter]

Speak to the builder and if you get no joy, contact Environmental Health and the Party Wall surveyor.  Quite how they have ended up with 20m piles when (I assume) the ground investigation suggested 5m is a concern.  30 piles for a small property sounds a lot.

[ToughButterCup]

10 hours ago, Jodie said:

....

The continuous pulsating under the house and shaking within every room makes me feel sick with worry.

I feel powerless to do anything and don’t know what repercussions we will have in the future. Can anyone advise?

 

Our piling company drove our piles while using an instrument  for vibration monitoring - and sent the readings back to the company head office. I can't remember the brand name of the meter but here's a link to the kind of thing I mean. 

 

Faced with your issue, I would go onto the site and

• explain your concern.
• ask the site supervisor if the vibration is monitored AND reported (to their head office)
• invite the site supervisor to come into your home and experience the vibration 
• If you get no real answer, then talk to the piling company head office. They will (should) be concerned because of the possibility of you claiming against them. 
• No joy there, then Environmental Health in your Local Authority is the next call

Its important to note that you cannot stop the work.

But you can and should be compensated for any material loss. That means gathering evidence. Cracks that weren't there before the work, plaster falling off the wall - stuff like that needs to be photographed.

 

The key question is : how much longer will the vibration continue, and - if there is evidence of damage and you need to claim - could you have a copy of the vibration monitoring results?

 

[MikeSharp01]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

Quite how they have ended up with 20m piles when (I assume) the ground investigation suggested 5m is a concern.  30 piles for a small property sounds a lot.

Just spoke to a colleague of mine, civil engineer / soil mechanic he has never heard of 20m piles for a to story building other than if you are building on a bog! Ask them why they need 20m piles.

[Mr Punter]

2 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Just spoke to a colleague of mine, civil engineer / soil mechanic he has never heard of 20m piles for a to story building other than if you are building on a bog! Ask them why they need 20m piles.

 

My brother has 20m piles for his house.  He should have used them for his orangery too.  Instead the orangery was on a raft and had to be demolished after a few years.  He is high up on clay soil 50m from a river with mature willows around.

 

We have 18m piles but we are very near a river.  With piling if the soil is weak you need to go down until you hit something to give a decent bearing.

[ToughButterCup]

Well, let me give you all pile envy - 52  (over 146 sq m.)

 

[Jodie]

Thanks everyone.

The piling has finally stopped today.

They never seemed to have a site supervisor. Just two guys looking at their phones all day while the pounding went on, unless they were doing a bit of welding.

There was a vibration monitor, they put it on the concrete base of one of our fence panels. They said the highest recording was 7mm/s (which was the piles located closest to our property), with an average of 4mm/2 up to now. I’m struggling to believe this as it’s been horrendous.

There used to be a pond on the garden which they knew about and the land survey suggested the ground was incredibly soft.

Some cracks have appeared around a couple of window frames and there is one on the wall of the stairs around 4 inches long but it is on a corner join. The cosmetic things are disappointing but it’s the long term damage to foundations that really concerns me.

 

[Jodie]

5 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

Our piling company drove our piles while using an instrument  for vibration monitoring - and sent the readings back to the company head office. I can't remember the brand name of the meter but here's a link to the kind of thing I mean. 

 

Faced with your issue, I would go onto the site and

• explain your concern.
• ask the site supervisor if the vibration is monitored AND reported (to their head office)
• invite the site supervisor to come into your home and experience the vibration 
• If you get no real answer, then talk to the piling company head office. They will (should) be concerned because of the possibility of you claiming against them. 
• No joy there, then Environmental Health in your Local Authority is the next call

Its important to note that you cannot stop the work.

But you can and should be compensated for any material loss. That means gathering evidence. Cracks that weren't there before the work, plaster falling off the wall - stuff like that needs to be photographed.

 

The key question is : how much longer will the vibration continue, and - if there is evidence of damage and you need to claim - could you have a copy of the vibration monitoring results?

 

 We’ve asked the agreed surveyor to request the report 👍🏻

[Jodie]

7 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

A small 2 story property needs 20m piles! Sounds a lot to me - do they need to get to bedrock?

 

 

 

7 hours ago, TommoUK said:

Speak to the party wall surveyor and raise your concerns. Any damage caused to your property is the responsibility of your neighbour and the surveyors job is ensure any damage is recorded and rectified.

 

6 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

Speak to the builder and if you get no joy, contact Environmental Health and the Party Wall surveyor.  Quite how they have ended up with 20m piles when (I assume) the ground investigation suggested 5m is a concern.  30 piles for a small property sounds a lot.

 

6 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

Our piling company drove our piles while using an instrument  for vibration monitoring - and sent the readings back to the company head office. I can't remember the brand name of the meter but here's a link to the kind of thing I mean. 

 

Faced with your issue, I would go onto the site and

• explain your concern.
• ask the site supervisor if the vibration is monitored AND reported (to their head office)
• invite the site supervisor to come into your home and experience the vibration 
• If you get no real answer, then talk to the piling company head office. They will (should) be concerned because of the possibility of you claiming against them. 
• No joy there, then Environmental Health in your Local Authority is the next call

Its important to note that you cannot stop the work.

But you can and should be compensated for any material loss. That means gathering evidence. Cracks that weren't there before the work, plaster falling off the wall - stuff like that needs to be photographed.

 

The key question is : how much longer will the vibration continue, and - if there is evidence of damage and you need to claim - could you have a copy of the vibration monitoring results?

 

 

4 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Just spoke to a colleague of mine, civil engineer / soil mechanic he has never heard of 20m piles for a to story building other than if you are building on a bog! Ask them why they need 20m piles.

Apparently it used to be a large pond across where we built 21 years ago and next door’s garden. They knew this like we did when they had the surveys done but still went ahead. We had our land vibro compacted. It was done in a day and has remained sound for 21 years.

[Jodie]

They’ve finally finished today! Does anyone know a rough estimate of how much it will have cost for the piling and concrete? I’m intrigued. Piles were 168mm diameter, 20m deep.

Edited October 11 by Jodie

[Gus Potter]

On 10/10/2024 at 22:54, Jodie said:

Can anyone advise?

Hiya.

 

Excuse the spelling / grammer as I'm off duty. Yes there are folk on BH that know about this stuff... but unfortunately you'll have to provide a lot more info to get targeted technical advise for free on BH. It's up to you.. if you feel able to provide sanitised copies of the party wall surveyors report, associated drawings.. or not.

 

On 10/10/2024 at 22:54, Jodie said:

The piling has differed to that stated in the piling RAMS of a depth of 4-5 metres

That is a major deviation and that should have been recorded and signed off by the PW surveyor.

 

On 10/10/2024 at 22:54, Jodie said:

There are a total of thirty piles in a very small area.

This can give rise to general soil swell.. who decided to do this? What kind of piles were used? Do you know?

 

On 10/10/2024 at 22:54, Jodie said:

It goes without saying that there is significantly more piling undertaken to that which was proposed and has caused a significant level of additional vibration to our property.

 

Ok there has been a nuisance in terms of noise.. let that lie for now.. but has this caused consolidation / swelling of the soil that can impact on you house?

 

On 10/10/2024 at 22:54, Jodie said:

We have cracks around our window frames and soil deposits appearing in between the block paving path. 

Do you have any record photos (dillapidations survey) of before the work started. The surveyor should have these if afforded access to your property. Did they ask to access your property and did you allow them to do so? If not they could be on a bit.. of a sticky wicket!

 

On 10/10/2024 at 22:54, Jodie said:

makes me feel sick with worry.

You have my support. It is horrible.

 

9 hours ago, Jodie said:

They said the highest recording was 7mm/s

Nice try from them! The ground acceleration is only one factor.. much depends on the soil type as this impacts on the neighbouring buildings in terms of later soil behavoir as it can introduce extra residual stress that can manifest later when the building moves about between winter and summer say. It can be the straw that breaks the camels back.

 

Also just where did they measure this vibration, who witnessed it and when were their instruments last calibated and certified. I smell..

 

Their first arguement is that to avoid immediate structural damage the accelearation needs to be generally less than say 15mm/s but that is only one part of the equation. help ma boab so they proudly announced that the vibration was 7.0mm/s.. to one decimal place.. my baldy head..

 

Think of this in terms of an earthquake...sudden and passes quickly but your house did not fall down right away.

 

But what about the longer term impact that said vibration has on the soil that your house sits on. This is also material. You could be forgiven for smelling manure and I think you know this but can't put technical terms to it.. this stuff is not common bedtime reading.

 

What kind of piles did they use, what kind of soil do you have.. if they have gone down 20m you probably have a sensitive / soft / swell prone soil. Their SE may have wanted to get down to something hard.. your house may be floating on a crust of clay say like load of houses in the south of the UK. Now next door they pile to death and upset everything on the otherside of the boundary.

9 hours ago, Jodie said:

Some cracks have appeared around a couple of window frames and there is one on the wall of the stairs around 4 inches long but it is on a corner join. The cosmetic things are disappointing but it’s the long term damage to foundations that really concerns me.

You can now see evidence that the work next door may have caused damage to your house. All houses move about from winter to summer but you rightly identify what long term damage could result.

 

My own thoughts are:

 

1/ Yes it has been a nightmare for you.

 

2/ Choice 1.. get ripped right into them and demonstrate the surveyor and contractor have been negligent. This will cost a lot and be very stressful. You'll need money to do this.. while you may be correct on the technical arguement you'll need to be able to show that you have suffered a loss legally to stand a good chance of getting financial compensation.

On 10/10/2024 at 22:54, Jodie said:

soil deposits appearing in between the block paving path. 

Get photo of this as we can then talk about soil liquifaction! It may be a clear winner for you but again it is a major undertaking to take on these folk. For this to occur then there must have been much more vibration than they are claiming?

 

3/ Do nothing and make sure you keep your home insurance up to date.

 

Unfortunalety the piling industry and some surveyors work on a "who dares win basis" I does my head in as an SE and folk like you end up suffering.

 

4/ Record everything you can and wait.

 

I would love to be able to say.. here is how you fix this but I can't as don't have enough info and am aware that the stress levels can go through the roof if you take on this fight.

 

 

Edited October 12 by Gus Potter

[Jodie]

Thank you for the time taken to reply Gus, it’s really appreciated. I will take your comments and put them to the chartered surveyor. He hasn’t been back to photograph since. I have taken videos and photographs of how bad it actually was. I feel really stressed about the situation. We have been here 22 years after building the house ourselves. We’ve never had any issues with movement. I will be devastated if this now happens.

Edited October 15 by Jodie

[Jodie]

[Jilly]

It might be a good idea to stay with the same insurance company. An old house we owned had been underpinned and we had to take on the same policy, as did subsequent owners. Not a huge deal, but you can’t shop around or they might cry ‘pre existing’ and not pay if something happens .

Edited October 15 by Jilly

[Jodie]

On 12/10/2024 at 01:05, Gus Potter said:

Hiya.

 

Excuse the spelling / grammer as I'm off duty. Yes there are folk on BH that know about this stuff... but unfortunately you'll have to provide a lot more info to get targeted technical advise for free on BH. It's up to you.. if you feel able to provide sanitised copies of the party wall surveyors report, associated drawings.. or not.

 

That is a major deviation and that should have been recorded and signed off by the PW surveyor.

 

This can give rise to general soil swell.. who decided to do this? What kind of piles were used? Do you know?

 

Ok there has been a nuisance in terms of noise.. let that lie for now.. but has this caused consolidation / swelling of the soil that can impact on you house?

 

Do you have any record photos (dillapidations survey) of before the work started. The surveyor should have these if afforded access to your property. Did they ask to access your property and did you allow them to do so? If not they could be on a bit.. of a sticky wicket!

 

You have my support. It is horrible.

 

Nice try from them! The ground acceleration is only one factor.. much depends on the soil type as this impacts on the neighbouring buildings in terms of later soil behavoir as it can introduce extra residual stress that can manifest later when the building moves about between winter and summer say. It can be the straw that breaks the camels back.

 

Also just where did they measure this vibration, who witnessed it and when were their instruments last calibated and certified. I smell..

 

Their first arguement is that to avoid immediate structural damage the accelearation needs to be generally less than say 15mm/s but that is only one part of the equation. help ma boab so they proudly announced that the vibration was 7.0mm/s.. to one decimal place.. my baldy head..

 

Think of this in terms of an earthquake...sudden and passes quickly but your house did not fall down right away.

 

But what about the longer term impact that said vibration has on the soil that your house sits on. This is also material. You could be forgiven for smelling manure and I think you know this but can't put technical terms to it.. this stuff is not common bedtime reading.

 

What kind of piles did they use, what kind of soil do you have.. if they have gone down 20m you probably have a sensitive / soft / swell prone soil. Their SE may have wanted to get down to something hard.. your house may be floating on a crust of clay say like load of houses in the south of the UK. Now next door they pile to death and upset everything on the otherside of the boundary.

You can now see evidence that the work next door may have caused damage to your house. All houses move about from winter to summer but you rightly identify what long term damage could result.

 

My own thoughts are:

 

1/ Yes it has been a nightmare for you.

 

2/ Choice 1.. get ripped right into them and demonstrate the surveyor and contractor have been negligent. This will cost a lot and be very stressful. You'll need money to do this.. while you may be correct on the technical arguement you'll need to be able to show that you have suffered a loss legally to stand a good chance of getting financial compensation.

Get photo of this as we can then talk about soil liquifaction! It may be a clear winner for you but again it is a major undertaking to take on these folk. For this to occur then there must have been much more vibration than they are claiming?

 

3/ Do nothing and make sure you keep your home insurance up to date.

 

Unfortunalety the piling industry and some surveyors work on a "who dares win basis" I does my head in as an SE and folk like you end up suffering.

 

4/ Record everything you can and wait.

 

I would love to be able to say.. here is how you fix this but I can't as don't have enough info and am aware that the stress levels can go through the roof if you take on this fight.

 

 

 

[Jodie]

Here’s the piling drawing, stating 4 metres depth!

[Lofty718]

When a contractor quotes for piling it's an assumed depth just like most foundations. If they don't hit stable ground then they will drive the piles deeper until they do, they've done nothing wrong they are just trying to get on with their build. I do not see any issue here as long as they repair any damage to your property

 

 

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> When a contractor quotes for piling it's an assumed depth just like most foundations.

 

Can I ask - does this also work if they have to go less deep than they thought i.e. they give you a reduction?

[Jodie]

It was two weeks of torture, every second the ground pulsated and the house shook. Every second, 8 hours a day for two weeks. It’s not about repairing damage, it’s about insidious future problems that will manifest maybe in 12 months or 12 years. This is our home that we built and have lived in happily for 21 years. Why should people be allowed to come and wreck other people's property. They knew the soil wasn’t build worthy but steamed ahead regardless. 

[Pocster]

I originally was going the pile route but the cost was too high . None the less I had to have vibration alarms around the site whilst excavating. I’m surprised this wasnt a requirement in this situation.

[Gus Potter]

20 hours ago, Jodie said:

 

Hi Jodie.

 

That's a start posting part of a drawing.. but unfortunately it does not tell all. The piles do appear quite close to the boundary and your house is say 3.0m away from the piles roughly. Ideally I (and probably a lot of the folk on BH that know about this stuff) would like to see all the drawings and info that you have available, even up to and including the BC drawings submitted. If you do post try and edit out anything that identifies you or the site address. See later!

 

The small screen shot raises more questions. Were the steel encased piles to be bored or driven initially? How far apart are the piles? Is it your house that is shown to the left.. and is your house on piles say.. do you know what kind of founds your house has.. you probably do.  It will take a bit of effort to get to the bottom of this.

 

Much will depend on how determined you are. In a lot of claims situations, say relating to new builds the developer / builder gives you the run around first. Then the insurer that handles the warranty does the same. This way they cut the claims down by more than half I think just by attrition. Also they know that most home owners don't have say an SE in the family who will work probono so they get canned as can't afford to fight winable claims or take the risk. One fly in their ointment here is Build Hub.

 

Now in my experience once you get over the attrition hurdle the opposition start to take things seriously and will look at the evidence on the table, not too seriously at first as they have a lot of tricks up their sleeves.

 

There are a number of strategies but one approach is to understand:

 

1/ First how your house was build and the ground under. How it has moved about as it's aged.... often houses settle a bit. You may have family photos with the house in the background.. easy to date and they tend to record any trees you may have for example in the garden... for anothe rday but trees are important and need to bee considered / ruled out.

2/ Look at what founds should have been built next door. Understand what the design intent was behind that.

3/ Look at what they have done in so far as you know..could be correspondance / what you have seen and experienced and so on.

4/ Work out what risks may be applicable to your house as a consequence of what they have done next door. Has the risk increased by them changing the design.

5/ If they have gone deep then they may have loaded your soil basically without permission.. which has the potential to induce further settlement of your house.

 

I'll stop there but firstly don't panic, try and sleep well.

 

Often an outcome could be that if you get them partly over a barrel and start running up the costs and professional fees on their side (which is a tactic I use. I work for myself so it's a bit David and Goliath.. but there are often ways to get results) a negotiation takes place. With a fair wind (if you can detemine you have been compromised) then they may offer you an indemnity policy, cover your professional fees and send you an Xmas hamper.

 

Mind you if they have loaded your ground or caused it to swell / behave in a different way and badly breached the principles of the PWA then you could make hay and give them a very rough ride! In that case a bit more than an Xmas hamper will be required.

 

Keep on good terms if you can with the folk next door as they may have little clue that the builder, surveyor any SE may have got them into hot water. If that is the case then they will often be as equally concerned as you are. The builder has probably charged them more! You may find them to be an ally rather than an adversory. It could be that if you win they win also?

 

Just to finish. I use my own name but in your case please don't identify youself or your site as it could compromise any case you may have.

 

@ Jodie keep your head up!

 

 

 

 

[Roundtuit]

12 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

>>> When a contractor quotes for piling it's an assumed depth just like most foundations.

 

Can I ask - does this also work if they have to go less deep than they thought i.e. they give you a reduction?

Some pilers do.  We had an assumed depth of 10m, plus additional cost for deeper, and a few quid off if it was less. 

[Gus Potter]

21 hours ago, Lofty718 said:

When a contractor quotes for piling it's an assumed depth just like most foundations.

This is true.. but to completey change the installation method, pile construction (cased, end and friction bearing assumptions, flight auger etc) and drastically the driven depth when close to a boundary raises questions.