Piling nightmare

[Jodie]

I live adjacent to where building work has commenced to build a small two storey property. 

We were served with a party wall agreement, as 5 of the piles are within 3 metres of our home and others are 6 metres, the furthest being around 14 metres. We appointed a joint chartered surveyor with the builder. 

The piling has differed to that stated in the piling RAMS of a depth of 4-5 metres, in that the piles are going much further into the ground than first anticipated, with all going as much as 20m below ground level. There are a total of thirty piles in a very small area. It has taken 11 days so far.

 

It goes without saying that there is significantly more piling undertaken to that which was proposed and has caused a significant level of additional vibration to our property.

 

I feel the builder is inconsiderate. He is piling 20 metres deep, causing intense vibration every second of every working day, up to 8 hours, for the last two weeks. We have cracks around our window frames and soil deposits appearing in between the block paving path. 
The continuous pulsating under the house and shaking within every room makes me feel sick with worry.

I feel powerless to do anything and don’t know what repercussions we will have in the future. Can anyone advise?

[TommoUK]

Speak to the party wall surveyor and raise your concerns. Any damage caused to your property is the responsibility of your neighbour and the surveyors job is ensure any damage is recorded and rectified.

[MikeSharp01]

A small 2 story property needs 20m piles! Sounds a lot to me - do they need to get to bedrock?

 

 

[Mr Punter]

Speak to the builder and if you get no joy, contact Environmental Health and the Party Wall surveyor.  Quite how they have ended up with 20m piles when (I assume) the ground investigation suggested 5m is a concern.  30 piles for a small property sounds a lot.

[ToughButterCup]

10 hours ago, Jodie said:

....

The continuous pulsating under the house and shaking within every room makes me feel sick with worry.

I feel powerless to do anything and don’t know what repercussions we will have in the future. Can anyone advise?

 

Our piling company drove our piles while using an instrument  for vibration monitoring - and sent the readings back to the company head office. I can't remember the brand name of the meter but here's a link to the kind of thing I mean. 

 

Faced with your issue, I would go onto the site and

• explain your concern.
• ask the site supervisor if the vibration is monitored AND reported (to their head office)
• invite the site supervisor to come into your home and experience the vibration 
• If you get no real answer, then talk to the piling company head office. They will (should) be concerned because of the possibility of you claiming against them. 
• No joy there, then Environmental Health in your Local Authority is the next call

Its important to note that you cannot stop the work.

But you can and should be compensated for any material loss. That means gathering evidence. Cracks that weren't there before the work, plaster falling off the wall - stuff like that needs to be photographed.

 

The key question is : how much longer will the vibration continue, and - if there is evidence of damage and you need to claim - could you have a copy of the vibration monitoring results?

 

[MikeSharp01]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

Quite how they have ended up with 20m piles when (I assume) the ground investigation suggested 5m is a concern.  30 piles for a small property sounds a lot.

Just spoke to a colleague of mine, civil engineer / soil mechanic he has never heard of 20m piles for a to story building other than if you are building on a bog! Ask them why they need 20m piles.

[Mr Punter]

2 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Just spoke to a colleague of mine, civil engineer / soil mechanic he has never heard of 20m piles for a to story building other than if you are building on a bog! Ask them why they need 20m piles.

 

My brother has 20m piles for his house.  He should have used them for his orangery too.  Instead the orangery was on a raft and had to be demolished after a few years.  He is high up on clay soil 50m from a river with mature willows around.

 

We have 18m piles but we are very near a river.  With piling if the soil is weak you need to go down until you hit something to give a decent bearing.

[ToughButterCup]

Well, let me give you all pile envy - 52  (over 146 sq m.)

 

[Jodie]

Thanks everyone.

The piling has finally stopped today.

They never seemed to have a site supervisor. Just two guys looking at their phones all day while the pounding went on, unless they were doing a bit of welding.

There was a vibration monitor, they put it on the concrete base of one of our fence panels. They said the highest recording was 7mm/s (which was the piles located closest to our property), with an average of 4mm/2 up to now. I’m struggling to believe this as it’s been horrendous.

There used to be a pond on the garden which they knew about and the land survey suggested the ground was incredibly soft.

Some cracks have appeared around a couple of window frames and there is one on the wall of the stairs around 4 inches long but it is on a corner join. The cosmetic things are disappointing but it’s the long term damage to foundations that really concerns me.

 

[Jodie]

5 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

Our piling company drove our piles while using an instrument  for vibration monitoring - and sent the readings back to the company head office. I can't remember the brand name of the meter but here's a link to the kind of thing I mean. 

 

Faced with your issue, I would go onto the site and

• explain your concern.
• ask the site supervisor if the vibration is monitored AND reported (to their head office)
• invite the site supervisor to come into your home and experience the vibration 
• If you get no real answer, then talk to the piling company head office. They will (should) be concerned because of the possibility of you claiming against them. 
• No joy there, then Environmental Health in your Local Authority is the next call

Its important to note that you cannot stop the work.

But you can and should be compensated for any material loss. That means gathering evidence. Cracks that weren't there before the work, plaster falling off the wall - stuff like that needs to be photographed.

 

The key question is : how much longer will the vibration continue, and - if there is evidence of damage and you need to claim - could you have a copy of the vibration monitoring results?

 

 We’ve asked the agreed surveyor to request the report 👍🏻

[Jodie]

7 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

A small 2 story property needs 20m piles! Sounds a lot to me - do they need to get to bedrock?

 

 

 

7 hours ago, TommoUK said:

Speak to the party wall surveyor and raise your concerns. Any damage caused to your property is the responsibility of your neighbour and the surveyors job is ensure any damage is recorded and rectified.

 

6 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

Speak to the builder and if you get no joy, contact Environmental Health and the Party Wall surveyor.  Quite how they have ended up with 20m piles when (I assume) the ground investigation suggested 5m is a concern.  30 piles for a small property sounds a lot.

 

6 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

Our piling company drove our piles while using an instrument  for vibration monitoring - and sent the readings back to the company head office. I can't remember the brand name of the meter but here's a link to the kind of thing I mean. 

 

Faced with your issue, I would go onto the site and

• explain your concern.
• ask the site supervisor if the vibration is monitored AND reported (to their head office)
• invite the site supervisor to come into your home and experience the vibration 
• If you get no real answer, then talk to the piling company head office. They will (should) be concerned because of the possibility of you claiming against them. 
• No joy there, then Environmental Health in your Local Authority is the next call

Its important to note that you cannot stop the work.

But you can and should be compensated for any material loss. That means gathering evidence. Cracks that weren't there before the work, plaster falling off the wall - stuff like that needs to be photographed.

 

The key question is : how much longer will the vibration continue, and - if there is evidence of damage and you need to claim - could you have a copy of the vibration monitoring results?

 

 

4 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Just spoke to a colleague of mine, civil engineer / soil mechanic he has never heard of 20m piles for a to story building other than if you are building on a bog! Ask them why they need 20m piles.

Apparently it used to be a large pond across where we built 21 years ago and next door’s garden. They knew this like we did when they had the surveys done but still went ahead. We had our land vibro compacted. It was done in a day and has remained sound for 21 years.

[Jodie]

They’ve finally finished today! Does anyone know a rough estimate of how much it will have cost for the piling and concrete? I’m intrigued. Piles were 168mm diameter, 20m deep.

Edited Friday at 22:31 by Jodie

[Gus Potter]

On 10/10/2024 at 22:54, Jodie said:

Can anyone advise?

Hiya.

 

Excuse the spelling / grammer as I'm off duty. Yes there are folk on BH that know about this stuff... but unfortunately you'll have to provide a lot more info to get targeted technical advise for free on BH. It's up to you.. if you feel able to provide sanitised copies of the party wall surveyors report, associated drawings.. or not.

 

On 10/10/2024 at 22:54, Jodie said:

The piling has differed to that stated in the piling RAMS of a depth of 4-5 metres

That is a major deviation and that should have been recorded and signed off by the PW surveyor.

 

On 10/10/2024 at 22:54, Jodie said:

There are a total of thirty piles in a very small area.

This can give rise to general soil swell.. who decided to do this? What kind of piles were used? Do you know?

 

On 10/10/2024 at 22:54, Jodie said:

It goes without saying that there is significantly more piling undertaken to that which was proposed and has caused a significant level of additional vibration to our property.

 

Ok there has been a nuisance in terms of noise.. let that lie for now.. but has this caused consolidation / swelling of the soil that can impact on you house?

 

On 10/10/2024 at 22:54, Jodie said:

We have cracks around our window frames and soil deposits appearing in between the block paving path. 

Do you have any record photos (dillapidations survey) of before the work started. The surveyor should have these if afforded access to your property. Did they ask to access your property and did you allow them to do so? If not they could be on a bit.. of a sticky wicket!

 

On 10/10/2024 at 22:54, Jodie said:

makes me feel sick with worry.

You have my support. It is horrible.

 

9 hours ago, Jodie said:

They said the highest recording was 7mm/s

Nice try from them! The ground acceleration is only one factor.. much depends on the soil type as this impacts on the neighbouring buildings in terms of later soil behavoir as it can introduce extra residual stress that can manifest later when the building moves about between winter and summer say. It can be the straw that breaks the camels back.

 

Also just where did they measure this vibration, who witnessed it and when were their instruments last calibated and certified. I smell..

 

Their first arguement is that to avoid immediate structural damage the accelearation needs to be generally less than say 15mm/s but that is only one part of the equation. help ma boab so they proudly announced that the vibration was 7.0mm/s.. to one decimal place.. my baldy head..

 

Think of this in terms of an earthquake...sudden and passes quickly but your house did not fall down right away.

 

But what about the longer term impact that said vibration has on the soil that your house sits on. This is also material. You could be forgiven for smelling manure and I think you know this but can't put technical terms to it.. this stuff is not common bedtime reading.

 

What kind of piles did they use, what kind of soil do you have.. if they have gone down 20m you probably have a sensitive / soft / swell prone soil. Their SE may have wanted to get down to something hard.. your house may be floating on a crust of clay say like load of houses in the south of the UK. Now next door they pile to death and upset everything on the otherside of the boundary.

9 hours ago, Jodie said:

Some cracks have appeared around a couple of window frames and there is one on the wall of the stairs around 4 inches long but it is on a corner join. The cosmetic things are disappointing but it’s the long term damage to foundations that really concerns me.

You can now see evidence that the work next door may have caused damage to your house. All houses move about from winter to summer but you rightly identify what long term damage could result.

 

My own thoughts are:

 

1/ Yes it has been a nightmare for you.

 

2/ Choice 1.. get ripped right into them and demonstrate the surveyor and contractor have been negligent. This will cost a lot and be very stressful. You'll need money to do this.. while you may be correct on the technical arguement you'll need to be able to show that you have suffered a loss legally to stand a good chance of getting financial compensation.

On 10/10/2024 at 22:54, Jodie said:

soil deposits appearing in between the block paving path. 

Get photo of this as we can then talk about soil liquifaction! It may be a clear winner for you but again it is a major undertaking to take on these folk. For this to occur then there must have been much more vibration than they are claiming?

 

3/ Do nothing and make sure you keep your home insurance up to date.

 

Unfortunalety the piling industry and some surveyors work on a "who dares win basis" I does my head in as an SE and folk like you end up suffering.

 

4/ Record everything you can and wait.

 

I would love to be able to say.. here is how you fix this but I can't as don't have enough info and am aware that the stress levels can go through the roof if you take on this fight.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 00:23 by Gus Potter

[Jodie]

Thank you for the time taken to reply Gus, it’s really appreciated. I will take your comments and put them to the chartered surveyor. He hasn’t been back to photograph since. I have taken videos and photographs of how bad it actually was. I feel really stressed about the situation. We have been here 22 years after building the house ourselves. We’ve never had any issues with movement. I will be devastated if this now happens.

Edited 3 hours ago by Jodie

[Jodie]

[Jilly]

It might be a good idea to stay with the same insurance company. An old house we owned had been underpinned and we had to take on the same policy, as did subsequent owners. Not a huge deal, but you can’t shop around or they might cry ‘pre existing’ and not pay if something happens .

Edited 2 hours ago by Jilly

[Jodie]

On 12/10/2024 at 01:05, Gus Potter said:

Hiya.

 

Excuse the spelling / grammer as I'm off duty. Yes there are folk on BH that know about this stuff... but unfortunately you'll have to provide a lot more info to get targeted technical advise for free on BH. It's up to you.. if you feel able to provide sanitised copies of the party wall surveyors report, associated drawings.. or not.

 

That is a major deviation and that should have been recorded and signed off by the PW surveyor.

 

This can give rise to general soil swell.. who decided to do this? What kind of piles were used? Do you know?

 

Ok there has been a nuisance in terms of noise.. let that lie for now.. but has this caused consolidation / swelling of the soil that can impact on you house?

 

Do you have any record photos (dillapidations survey) of before the work started. The surveyor should have these if afforded access to your property. Did they ask to access your property and did you allow them to do so? If not they could be on a bit.. of a sticky wicket!

 

You have my support. It is horrible.

 

Nice try from them! The ground acceleration is only one factor.. much depends on the soil type as this impacts on the neighbouring buildings in terms of later soil behavoir as it can introduce extra residual stress that can manifest later when the building moves about between winter and summer say. It can be the straw that breaks the camels back.

 

Also just where did they measure this vibration, who witnessed it and when were their instruments last calibated and certified. I smell..

 

Their first arguement is that to avoid immediate structural damage the accelearation needs to be generally less than say 15mm/s but that is only one part of the equation. help ma boab so they proudly announced that the vibration was 7.0mm/s.. to one decimal place.. my baldy head..

 

Think of this in terms of an earthquake...sudden and passes quickly but your house did not fall down right away.

 

But what about the longer term impact that said vibration has on the soil that your house sits on. This is also material. You could be forgiven for smelling manure and I think you know this but can't put technical terms to it.. this stuff is not common bedtime reading.

 

What kind of piles did they use, what kind of soil do you have.. if they have gone down 20m you probably have a sensitive / soft / swell prone soil. Their SE may have wanted to get down to something hard.. your house may be floating on a crust of clay say like load of houses in the south of the UK. Now next door they pile to death and upset everything on the otherside of the boundary.

You can now see evidence that the work next door may have caused damage to your house. All houses move about from winter to summer but you rightly identify what long term damage could result.

 

My own thoughts are:

 

1/ Yes it has been a nightmare for you.

 

2/ Choice 1.. get ripped right into them and demonstrate the surveyor and contractor have been negligent. This will cost a lot and be very stressful. You'll need money to do this.. while you may be correct on the technical arguement you'll need to be able to show that you have suffered a loss legally to stand a good chance of getting financial compensation.

Get photo of this as we can then talk about soil liquifaction! It may be a clear winner for you but again it is a major undertaking to take on these folk. For this to occur then there must have been much more vibration than they are claiming?

 

3/ Do nothing and make sure you keep your home insurance up to date.

 

Unfortunalety the piling industry and some surveyors work on a "who dares win basis" I does my head in as an SE and folk like you end up suffering.

 

4/ Record everything you can and wait.

 

I would love to be able to say.. here is how you fix this but I can't as don't have enough info and am aware that the stress levels can go through the roof if you take on this fight.

 

 

 

[Jodie]

Here’s the piling drawing, stating 4 metres depth!

[Lofty718]

When a contractor quotes for piling it's an assumed depth just like most foundations. If they don't hit stable ground then they will drive the piles deeper until they do, they've done nothing wrong they are just trying to get on with their build. I do not see any issue here as long as they repair any damage to your property