The debate…

[BadgerBodger]

Architect, architectural “designer” (aka technologist) or wing it. 
 

Context target build cost 450k for listed building conversion with an extension. Floor area 330m2. Planning permission granted.
 

Quotes for design development, building regulation submissions & detailed drawings from architects, circa 15k + vat.  Technologist, 6k + vat. Winging it 0… working under a building notice. 
 

I’m sure this has been debated previously and I’m sure experience is varied but has anyone just gone for it without a designer of any sort and what was the experience like? The adventurous side of me says I have the experience, I’ve been working with building control for 15 years and have a good understanding of the problems and details. The risk averse side of me says go with the more experienced of all of them (an architect with heritage experience). 
 

Note i’m erring on the side of the latter if only for better ability to let packages with certainty and generate a decent BOQ…

[saveasteading]

24 minutes ago, BadgerBodger said:

adventurous side of me says I have the experience, 

I don't think we can say. We don't know you or the project.

 

15k seems a lot. If you knew nothing perhaps that would ok.

 

What does the project involve?

[JohnMo]

Not jumping in to your question. But make sure heritage has actually seen and approved stuff. Even with planning in place, doesn't mean they have approved anything. They are normally engaged separately. Been there, been bitten.

[G and J]

Hmmm, so that’s less than 6% of your budget…

 

How much would a cock up cost?

[BadgerBodger]

59 minutes ago, G and J said:

Hmmm, so that’s less than 6% of your budget…

 

How much would a cock up cost?

Well, that’s the debate. I work on large infrastructure projects currently and mistake generally cost fractions of percent even if the cost 10’s of thousands. But I’ve worked on dwelling conversions and a small mistake in such cases cost a much larger proportion of the budget. Albeit I don’t recall any single issue casting as much as 6% the aggregate could well have worked up that way and resulted in some less that satisfactory design compromises…

4 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Not jumping in to your question. But make sure heritage has actually seen and approved stuff. Even with planning in place, doesn't mean they have approved anything. They are normally engaged separately. Been there, been bitten.

Good point. The architect who has been most gauging and is swaying me in favour of  a “full design” has made similar comments however the conditions applied to both applications are the same and are fairly limited. 

4 hours ago, saveasteading said:

I don't think we can say. We don't know you or the project.

 

15k seems a lot. If you knew nothing perhaps that would ok.

 

What does the project involve?

The project is not necessarily overly complex. A reasonably dilapidated envelope which has previously had an internal steel structure installed to restrain lateral movement of the walls. The proposal is to install internal stud walls with insulation to form an internal envelope with the vision to achieve close to enerphit standards. ASHP, MVHR, solar etc. the new extension makes up 1:6 of the floor area and is single storey.  A central atrium. Is surrounded by a 3 story and 2 storey layout. There are considerations for ecology, archaeology and flood risk.

[saveasteading]

9 hours ago, BadgerBodger said:

There are considerations for ecology, archaeology and flood risk

These are specialist subjects. If you engage an Architect, just ensure these matters are not all passed on to other consultants at your expense.

I've seen projects with 10 consultants when one could have been capable.

[BadgerBodger]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

These are specialist subjects. If you engage an Architect, just ensure these matters are not all passed on to other consultants at your expense.

I've seen projects with 10 consultants when one could have been capable.

Yes. I can see that. I am actually engaging these individuals individually as there are planning conditions which need addressing. I really don’t think I can get away without engaging with them (bat mitigation licence, archaeological requires  WSI, buildings recording and watching brief required). 3 quotes for each consultant before progressing. 

[saveasteading]

23 minutes ago, BadgerBodger said:

3 quotes for each consultant before progressing. 

More important than the cheapest price is their attitude.

Eg some in my experience see their role as stopping any development and by the way recommending themselves for additional surveys.

[BadgerBodger]

 

9 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

More important than the cheapest price is their attitude.

Eg some in my experience see their role as stopping any development and by the way recommending themselves for additional surveys.

Absolutely. I’ve actually chosen to move forward with one of the architects today on this basis. I absolutely got the feeling they would work with me to deliver what I wanted whilst carrying the experience of dealing with heritage projects that I saw beneficial. The same goes with the ecologist who I chose based on having seen some of his work prior and was the middle price. The archaeologist will be the toughest nut as I’m entirely unfamiliar with the field. Fortunately my chosen architect has already forwarded some preferred contacts with whom they have had success already. 
 

Feels like there is a hole in my pocket already… It’s much easier making these decision for work than myself!!!

[saveasteading]

27 minutes ago, BadgerBodger said:

The archaeologist will be the toughest nut as I’m entirely unfamiliar with the field

Why is it thought necessary to consult for archaeology? Or ecology? It is an existing building isn't it?

[BadgerBodger]

Ecology = Bats (in our case) = mitigation and watching brief when removing the and relocation if required along with replacement of roosts.

 

Archaeology = Listed building in area of historical importance (lost medieval village) = WSI, level 2 historical recording for cataloguing of the original structure, both to be submitted to planning for approval prior to commencement, and watching brief for and subsequent reporting of findings. 

[ETC]

That’s what I love about this forum - people prepared to spend vast amounts of money on a house but not prepared to appoint appropriate professionals to deliver the project.

 

I have a serious question for you - if you spent £450,000 on a car would you let an inexperienced and unqualified apprentice service your car?

[joe90]

7 minutes ago, ETC said:

people prepared to spend vast amounts of money on a house but not prepared to appoint appropriate professionals to deliver the project.

However, as I have mentioned before I designed my build and only had an SE to work on two steels required by BC, no Architect or technician and the build was exactly what I wanted. Perhaps I am lucky that I knew exactly what I wanted and I am sure not everyone can do that but assuming (as someone has said on here before regarding my build) that without an architects input mine was a boring box. (Which others have disagreed with). 

[SteamyTea]

7 hours ago, ETC said:

have a serious question for you - if you spent £450,000 on a car would you let an inexperienced and unqualified apprentice service your car?

Maybe not the best comparison.

The garage may well have apprentices that do work on the car, just as an architectural office will have trainees and lower qualified employees working on customers' projects.

It is really about management and supervision.

Transparency is a different thing.

[BadgerBodger]

3 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Maybe not the best comparison.

The garage may well have apprentices that do work on the car, just as an architectural office will have trainees and lower qualified employees working on customers' projects.

It is really about management and supervision.

Transparency is a different thing.

I’m inclined to agree, poor analogy, this is more akin to the people building my house which from prior experience is even more variable. 
 

I was never actually against either option. I was more curious as to whether it was thought that working without a designer was a viable choice considering the relative complexity. I have actually chosen an architect as when I met them they came having reviewed the existing proposal and identified some problem I had overlooked (extremely valid) and proffered solutions. I immediately realised that despite my experience I am

operating in a field unknown to me and I am used to the support and input an architect offers. I think a new build may well have resulted in a different choice.
 

First expensive decision of many, made. 

[Jilly]

Listed/ heritage buildings are always more costly/problematic and I suspect you need to be especially wary of interstitial condensation risks so I think you are right to use a specialist architect.  It could save you a lot of money/mistakes. 
Bat surveys can mount up, plus licence on top, but be aware

you have some say in the design of the mitigation plan. 

 

Edited September 29 by Jilly

[ETC]

41 minutes ago, BadgerBodger said:

I’m inclined to agree, poor analogy, this is more akin to the people building my house which from prior experience is even more variable. 
 

I was never actually against either option. I was more curious as to whether it was thought that working without a designer was a viable choice considering the relative complexity. I have actually chosen an architect as when I met them they came having reviewed the existing proposal and identified some problem I had overlooked (extremely valid) and proffered solutions. I immediately realised that despite my experience I am

operating in a field unknown to me and I am used to the support and input an architect offers. I think a new build may well have resulted in a different choice.
 

First expensive decision of many, made. 

It’s not expensive if they save you from c**king everything up. A good architect with experience in conservation/listed building work will save you money in the long run and from those charlatans who will try and sell you quick fix solutions to a plethora of problems that can be encountered when renovating a listed building.

[BadgerBodger]

24 minutes ago, Jilly said:

Listed/ heritage buildings are always more costly/problematic and I suspect you need to be especially wary of interstitial condensation risks so I think you are right to use a specialist architect.  It could save you a lot of money/mistakes. 
Bat surveys can mount up, plus licence on top, but be aware

you have some say in the design of the mitigation plan. 

 

Yes, this is the point!!!! This was my leading enquiry with all the designer i.e what was their vision for IWI strategy and then my thoughts and preferred solutions and if that deferred from theirs would the be prepared to work with my vision. 
 

Thanks for the heads up on the bat solutions. I think the proposal is the replace the existing roosts with integrated or surface mounted solutions. The ecologist I am engaged with appears very engaging. 
 

6 minutes ago, ETC said:

It’s not expensive if they save you from c**king everything up. A good architect with experience in conservation/listed building work will save you money in the long run and from those charlatans who will try and sell you quick fix solutions to a plethora of problems that can be encountered when renovating a listed building.

I think you’re right! Let’s see how it pans out but I have a good feeling. 

[DevilDamo]

On 26/09/2024 at 18:22, BadgerBodger said:

architectural “designer” (aka technologist)

An architectural designer is not a (chartered architectural) technologist if that is the cross referencing you were making.

[BadgerBodger]

 

25 minutes ago, DevilDamo said:

An architectural designer is not a (chartered architectural) technologist if that is the cross referencing you were making.

So this is something I was unclear about. The differentiation between and architect and others was clear i.e ARB registration. There is a difference between designer and technologist? And how does one quickly determine the difference?

[joe90]

2 hours ago, Jilly said:

you have some say in the design of the mitigation plan. 

 

1 hour ago, BadgerBodger said:

The ecologist I am engaged with appears very engaging. 
 

Yes, our planners tried to over rule our ecologists but were told by the appeal inspector they could not (I did not want bat boxes in the new build but was willing to build bat boxes into the detached garage which the ecologist said was acceptable). 

[mjc55]

2 hours ago, BadgerBodger said:

 

So this is something I was unclear about. The differentiation between and architect and others was clear i.e ARB registration. There is a difference between designer and technologist? And how does one quickly determine the difference?

 

An Architectural Technologist is usually registered with CIAT.

 

Doesn't have to be (as I remember it anyway - its a while since I looked at this) as it is not a protected title.

 

There are Architectural Technicians and Architectural Technologists and some would argue that there is a degree of knowledge and experience that separates these two.

 

Most people don't care to be honest.  I did an Architectural Technology degree in 2009-12, never bothered with becoming chartered - this was mainly because I was in my 50's when I started the degree, didn't particularly want to work for someone else (having being self-employed for over 20 years).

 

When I practiced I tried very hard to let people know what my experience and knowledge was but in most cases this fell on deaf ears.  

[BadgerBodger]

5 hours ago, mjc55 said:

 

An Architectural Technologist is usually registered with CIAT.

 

Doesn't have to be (as I remember it anyway - its a while since I looked at this) as it is not a protected title.

 

There are Architectural Technicians and Architectural Technologists and some would argue that there is a degree of knowledge and experience that separates these two.

 

Most people don't care to be honest.  I did an Architectural Technology degree in 2009-12, never bothered with becoming chartered - this was mainly because I was in my 50's when I started the degree, didn't particularly want to work for someone else (having being self-employed for over 20 years).

 

When I practiced I tried very hard to let people know what my experience and knowledge was but in most cases this fell on deaf ears.  

Thanks, this is a useful piece of information. 
 

Ultimately I think a customers satisfaction with their designer will boil down to just a couple of things, the responsibilities bear heavily on both and I think it will be unlikely that cause of dissatisfaction will rest with solely one party. In reality the relationship is no different to any other business transaction but for one reason or another it become a little more emotive
 

the customer needs to be able to identify what he wants i.e budget, features, feel, quality

 

the designer needs to be able to follow the brief 

 

both parties need to be able to communicate ESPECIALLY when there is a feeling that the product is deviating from the brief

 

the customer and the designer should bear in mind the type of work that is being requested, it may not align with the designer portfolio of work, in such a case there is a greater likelihood that both parties will not get what they want 

 

In my view, the problem with above is that most customers are reaching out to a designer in whatever form BECAUSE they don’t know what they want and this leads to change which leads to cost which leads to dissatisfaction. This is where the responsibility ends up landing at the doorstep of the designer and in my opinion is where a good designer shines through as they gently guide the customer through to the determination of their desires. 

Edited September 30 by BadgerBodger

[Jilly]

Ps another thing to consider is that the bat people may specify non breathable bituminous F1 roofing felt (an old building is likely to have this anyway), so watch out with the detailing, and be aware that the so-called ‘Batsafe’ membrane is not, it’s polyester and tangles in their feet (various lawsuits).

 

[DevilDamo]

16 hours ago, BadgerBodger said:

There is a difference between designer and technologist?

A Chartered Architectural Technologist is a protected title and governed by CIAT. An (architectural) designer would cover all those who take on a design element in architecture and are not necessarily or need to be qualified or chartered.