Church conversion

[TheLordJohn]

Hi all.

 

Viewing went ahead today. As I'm at the other end of the country I had a family member who lives 20 yards away do it for me 
Looks good, basically. Structurally sound - little bit of damp here and there, and there's no waste/toilet facilities so a cess-pit would be necessary.

It's a closed church, which I'd like to turn into a minimum 2 bed. 
The floor space is almost 1800 Sq Ft. 
Can anyone with authority/knowledge/experience give any pointers please?
Bought houses before, but never bought anything that is none residential use, and gone through the inevitable palaver involved.
It's Grade 2* listed. 

 

Also, unsure of how to go about financing this? 

 

IE - I have enough for a deposit to buy the place, but then I'm obviously going to need to borrow money against the future value of the house when it is finished, so i can carry out the conversion.

Thanks in advance, Stuart.

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Welcome, Stuart, and good luck with what sounds like a very interesting project.

 

First off, I'd try to establish whether you can get a foul drainage system that will meet the regs before going any further, as the lack of a compliant scheme could make the project non-viable, strange as that may sound.

 

Cess pits are practically forbidden now, and it's pretty unlikely that you would be granted dispensation to fit one, plus they are very costly, as they need emptying very regularly (several times a year, at around £120 to £150 a time).  The only real option if you can't access mains drainage, is a treatment plant, to EN12566-3, that will normally be expected to discharge to a suitable leach field, and will have to be located 7m away from any dwelling or highway.  The size and area of the leach field can cause problems, but there are alternatives, like using a pumped system and a raised sand bed, or, if you have a watercourse nearby, even a field drain, that runs all through the year, then the EA can grant a discharge permit that allows the treatment plant effluent to flow to the watercourse (we had to do this with ours).

 

Septic tanks are also shortly to be outlawed, I believe, and they have even more onerous requirements for the leach field, and as they cost about the same as a treatment plant they really aren't worth considering, in my view.  There's a good chance that even if you were allowed to fit a septic tank now it may well have to be converted to a treatment plant in the next few years, as that seems to be the governments intention.

 

One other option is to fit a pumped sewage system, that uses a small bore (typically 63mm MDPE) pipe that can run uphill to a main sewer.  They can work very well, we had such a system in a house in Scotland and it was trouble free and looks like it was easy to install.

 

So, before going further, look carefully at foul drainage, and see what your options are. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by JSHarris

[TheLordJohn]

Thanks very much for taking the time to reply. 
I'll look into it next!

 

PS - 

 

I have found this company - http://www.buildstore.co.uk/finance/mortgages/arrears-fixed-2.html

 

But the % rate for the mortgage seems significantly more than usual residential.

Is it safe to assume that most lenders (for conversion/self build) will ask for a significantly higher rate?
I don't mind paying a little more, but their rate is over 3 times what my residential mortgage rate is! 

Edited October 27, 2017 by TheLordJohn

[ProDave]

I would echo Jeremy's comments above. Can you post a site layout or something similar? How much land comes with it? That can be an issue with churches.  Does it actually have planning permission to convert? I recall reading of one on here where PP to convert a church was refused because it was liable to flooding. I don't know if that ever got resolved.

[Ferdinand]

What type of church is it? 

 

Age?

 

Materiall?

 

Listed ... what grade? What is listed?

 

Who are you buying it from?

 

What parking?

Edited October 27, 2017 by Ferdinand

[TheLordJohn]

Church of England (Closed Churches Division ) are selling it - 

 

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-69244178.html

 

There is a link to a 'plan' at the bottom of the advert which details (loosely) the size of the rear garden it comes with. 

Parking for 3 cars at the front, but otherwise, the majority of the front is retained by the Church for mourners. 

[ProDave]

You need to do some research. 

 

There might be enough land for a private drainage system, but expect any excavation works to come with a whole load or archaeological conditions.

 

It looks close to the village so mains drainage might be possible, but even if it is, you would need a right over some land to lay drain pipes.

[Jeremy Harris]

One thing struck me from the description - there is an existing foul drain to the church, it seems.  The details describe a kitchenette with sink, and as you can only legally drain a sink to a foul drain of some kind (usually!) that implies that there may well be a foul drain, but that there's just no WC connected to it.  I would urgently investigate this, best bet would be either the agent or go directly to the relevant water company and ask.

 

If asking the water company, and if they reply that there is no foul drain connection, then ask them where the nearest main sewer is.  They will usually email you a map showing where the sewers are in that area, with their depth.

 

I think there is a reasonable chance that you can get a main drainage connection, either via an existing foul drain that runs to the kitchenette, or via a connection to a nearby sewer.  You may need to be creative, as I doubt the church would allow the graveyard to be disturbed, so you really need the map from the water company to see what options you have.

[Ferdinand]

I can help here ... have been on PCCs and am a bit of a Church of England nerd.

 

It has water and gas and a drain of some sort, so service access may be possible though it looks like a long approach. Trench Arch systems have been used for loos in churches; no idea whether that would be allowed.

 

2* listed including aspects of interior so you will be circumscribed, but no tower.

 

Listing entry

https://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101121876-church-of-st-leonard-wetheral#.WfNoOtHTWhA

 

You need to get to grips with the CofE independent Planning System, to understand the building history and assess your risks, and talk to the Diocese of Cumbria. You may need to talk to the Secretary of the Diocesan Advisory Committee (DAC) and find out who the Professional Adviser for this church was. This person advises the parish and may have written the periodic reports - see next para. Then talk to that person to explore the maintenance history... it may be worth paying for a couple of hours of their time.

 

The DAC is the body that will have granted PP for past works to the church, but if you get it you will be in the Council Planning system and dealing with English Heritage and / or Conservation Officers.

 

You need to get copies of the last several Quinquiennial Inspection Reports, which are condition reports required every 5 years for churches, and probably have read, marked, learnt and inwardly digested them before your meeting with the architect.

 

For how these reports and the system work explore the Churchcare website, especially these pages

http://www.churchcare.co.uk/churches/guidance-advice/looking-after-your-church/quinquennial-inspections/quinquennial-inspections-the-report

 

If you can swing it, it will be of huge benefit to talk to a former Churchwarden, who are responsible for the physical assets and administration of the parish.

 

Be polite to people - they will all love the building and mainly be dedicated volunteers desperate to see it well-restored. They may have been round this loop several times already.

 

The Church authorities are likely to be professional and sympathetic, as they will have explored lots of options and want to get it away. I think you can probably be quite open in your discussions, but they have a legal responsibility to maximise return as consistent with their responsibility for the building.

 

I wonder if you get the right to impose a Chancel Tax on your neighbours :-).

 

Ferdinand

 

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

And ... are there bats.

[Jeremy Harris]

23 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

I wonder if you get the right to impose a Chancel Tax on your neighbours :-).

 

I had to jump through this hoop!  It seems that there may have been a right for our church to levy chancel tax, as the old orchard that our house is built on was owned by the church as a part of the church estate in the village, going back to medieval times, with it being unclear as to whether the right to levy chancel repair tax had been revoked or not, as it seems that this can be an inherited liability for successors in title.  It was all a bit odd, as the church is a long way out of the village now, and our land was right on the boundary of the land that belonged to it, or rather the abbey and then estate that took it over.  In the end we took out a single premium insurance policy against chancel repair liability, as the premium was modest, as there is no history in recent times of the church ever having levied this tax.

 

As an aside, it puzzled me as to why our village is so far away from its church (well over half a mile).  It seems that the village started to move away from the church shortly after the plague, and that the original village had been grouped around the church.  A coaching inn was then established on what was then the main route to the West Country, at the edge of the new village, so gradually over the next couple of hundred years the village migrated even further away from its church.  Our church dates back to 901 AD originally, it's believed and there's some interesting stuff on it here: https://www.achurchnearyou.com/fovant/

Edited October 27, 2017 by JSHarris

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, TheLordJohn said:

[...]

toilet facilities so a cess-pit would be necessary.

[...]

 

There's a simple rule: no foul drainage, no house. And it is not unheard of for houses to be built only to find that the foul drainage is a huge expensive problem.

Cess-pits are, I think, very rare indeed. 

 

Welcome, by the way

Ian

[ProDave]

Actually, if there is drainage for a sink (and therefore a bath) but no drainage for a WC, then you could consider a Warterless Closet (composting toilet) so not necessrilly a deal breaker. Building regs (at least in Scotland) allow a waterless closet, and I have seen one sold as a packaged system that looked quite reasonable to use and service.

[TheLordJohn]

Thanks for all the replies, gents. Very helpful indeed.

Off to work now so will process it all over the weekend.

 

Thanks again, appreciate all your help, Stuart.

 

[Tennentslager]

Looks fantastic...good luck.

Just an aside but my old neighbour ran a high end curtain making business, told me about a small church conversion he did. Nearly £4k he charged for that job although I think the fabric was tapestry style and expensive and there was lots of it for the big arched window.

 

[PeterW]

Welcome ..! 

 

Check very carefully how long it’s been closed. For at least a year it cannot be anything but a place of worship. Following that, it’s at least 6 if not 12 months to be declared as no longer required, and then it transfers to being the same class as nursery’s, community centres etc. 

 

Finally, you can start the process of applying for residential conversion with the council. Expect that to take 9-12 months as you have to prove their is no demand for the previous class of use. 

 

Its a long process with no guarantee ..! Unlikely you will get a mortgage either unless you can get outline planning for conversion

[Ferdinand]

I think the negotiations and checks will take at least a year :-)

[Jimbouk]

Has it already got planning consent for conversion to residential? If not try and delicately establish the view of the  Council Conservation Officer as to conversion.

 

[TheLordJohn]

Thanks for all the help with this, so far! 

Currently speaking to a self build mortgage company and a local company who can look into the waste water issue.

Thanks again, Stuart.

 

[Dudda]

I converted a church which finished about 3 years ago for a client. Planning took about a year, detailed design about 5 months and construction was about 10 months. It was a big job (over 2 million) as it was a big stone church and over 100 years old but I’m sure some of the same principles will apply.
You’ll need a good architect and possibly a conservation architect. These points are in no order and just as they come to me:

Meet the local priest
We met with two of the local priests during the design stage. The church was closed about 6 years but still had some religious items stored in it. It was critical to get an inventory of these done up and see exactly what the church wanted to keep. eg some timber pews, old damaged organ (dump), statues, altar, etc. It was also important to get their ‘blessing’ as we didn’t want any objections from locals who could claim we destroyed their former place of worship. The planners should also want this recorded and a photographic record of the building submitted with planning so it can be kept on file.

 

Meet the planners

We met the planners, local authority conservation architect, heritage, etc several times before lodging our planning application. They were reluctant on some of the more modern interventions so planning and design took a while. We also had trouble with fire (a huge exposed timber roof, timber wall paneling, original doors we were retaining which we'd restore but which wouldn't be certified as fire doors, etc). We just had to sit down and work through the items with them.

Opening up/investigation works
On a building this old you’ll never know what you’ll find. Get a local builder in for a few days to carry opening up works in about 10 places, floor, walls, roof, etc. You’ll get to see the build up, condition, etc. eg what state the roof timber is and what’s the build up. We found lovely original red brick and glazed tiles which were hidden behind some modern chipboard installed in the 60’s. This allowed us to include drawings and restoration specification into the tender package for builders. Another item we did during the upening up works was a drilling core test to check the load bearing capactiy of the existing floor. We knew we wanted a mezenine or second floor but wanted to know if the existing floor could support it (it couldn’t). Knowing the bearing conditions meant we knew before going to tender how much of the existing floor would have to be removed and how deep we’d have to dig.

Light & Ventilation
A key problem for us was getting light and ventilation into the church as it had original stained glass windows we couldn’t touch and didn’t want to go knocking giant holes and MVHR grills into the walls. We carried underground ducts under the floor and outside about 4-5 meters from the church where they took in fresh air hidden in a sloped bank. We then used rooflights on the non visible side of the church which was by chance south to let natural light in.

 

Services

We were close to electricity, mains water, gas, fiber internet, etc. but did have to coordinate these. As it was a protected building we got permission to build a concrete pillar a few meters from the church (close to where the ventilation ducts terminated around the back) where we installed the electricity and gas meter. We didn't want an electricity or gas meter fixed to the side of the church. This coordination did take a while and almost delayed the project.

 

Bats & Birds

Old churches are well known for having bats and birds resting in their eaves. We had some really rare bird which only nests in historic buildings. Ensure you've done a bat survey prior to tender and try and cordinate roof works outside the mating season or whatever season you're not allowed. We ended up having to phase the roof to ensure it was finished in time to allow the birds build their nests again in early spring and then had to move hoarding as it obstructed the flight path. Some things you have to do to please the local conservation and heritage officer.

 

I've loads of other info but this post is already getting long. The project ended up winning an architecture award so if you want more info I can PM you.

[TheLordJohn]

This has got to be the best/most helpful forum  I've ever been on.

(And I am registered on tonnes of car forums!) 

The self-build mortgage broker has agreed our funding in principle (affordability looks well within limits, basically) and i'm awaiting a response from the water board to see if it has waste/foul water set up, or if not, where the nearest point is we'd have to connect to.

 

I'm going to have to speak with local builders (or get recommendations of) to give me an idea of the full budget required.

 

Thanks for all the help so far. (Dudda - thanks for taking the time to put all that together).

[Jeremy Harris]

We can probably help a lot more as details become clearer, as we've all been there, done that, in one form or another, and have the scars to prove it!

 

One thing is for sure, and that is that a self build, renovation or conversion project like this can be very demanding on your time, and sadly I would have to say that it pays to treat "experts" with a certain amount of caution.  There are some very good people out there, but there are, unfortunately, a very large number of monkeys, who have near-zero skill and will try and charge you the earth.  My advice would be to consult here as widely as you can, sift through the differing opinions, and use this information when seeking contractors.  The more knowledge you have, or can acquire, the less likely you are to find yourself getting ripped of.

[Hecateh]

1 hour ago, TheLordJohn said:

The self-build mortgage broker has agreed our funding in principle (affordability looks well within limits, basically)

Maybe worth trying these https://dolphinfinancialltd.co.uk/

I got so far with the build store people but didn't like the fact that they were the only people I got prices from.  Eventually found these and got (agreement in principle so far) an offer with the same company for £2000 less - They only charge 1% rather than 2 as arrangement fee and they don't charge direct commission.  That was what made me determined to look in the end.  I didn't mind paying commission but I found that the mortgage company was giving them good commission and they were charging me as well.  KIS get their commission from the mortgage company and don't charge the customer as well

[Jeremy Harris]

Good find.  Pretty much everyone here who has ended up using Buildstore, more often that not because it seemed that had a virtual monopoly, has ended up paying way over the odds.  Nice to see there is at least one other option for more conventional builds.  Low energy builds are covered pretty well by the Ecology BS, but you need to be building something like our place in order to qualify for one of their loans.  Good value, though, and you get to deal with  a real human being.

[Hecateh]

Real nice guy at KIS too - small company, get to talk with one of the partners AND was happy to go back with things I wasn't happy with.  EG originally they said the 'security' had to be on the market before they would release the money.  Pointed out that this couldn't happen for 2 reasons.  To start with there would be the total stupidity of trying to get the best price for a house whilst building was going on in the garden. (obviously didn't phrase it quite like that)  AND, more importantly from their point of view,  the boundary would not be set until the new property was (almost) finished.  Can't sell something without a defined boundary LOL.  The mortgage company at least saw the sense in this.