Ordering Supply Only

[haythorn_1]

I am narrowing down on which window supplier to choose and leaning towards Allan Bros alu clad, but they are are supply only.

 

Does any one have any advice on dealing with supply only manufacturers and how best to reduce the risks with this. I have made some enquiries about getting professional installers to fit them. The main questions I have are:

 

1. Measuring - should I pay for a window installer to do this? Is it that hard? My construction in brick and block so i presume worst case the opening could be adjusted?
2. Fitting - should I pay for a window installer company to do this? Have others had success with their builder doing this? Is the skill getting them in place or getting them to work smoothly? I have a couple of french doors that would be annoying if it didnt work well.
3. Airtightness - i was planning on doing this myself although an installer has offered to do this too. Would an installer do a better job?
4. Protection - the installer has included in their quote to apply industrial cling film on the inside and out. Seems like a sensible idea but it’s an extra £1k! Would i be foolish to remove this? 

 

Thanks in advance!

 

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, haythorn_1 said:

Does any one have any advice on dealing with supply only manufacturers

Don't use them, unless you enjoy taking full risk on your shoulders.

 

I chose to use a supplier that would measure, supply, and install. If they got measurements wrong or things didn't align as expected it was down to them to fix. I paid extra but slept at nights 

 

Supply only and a big chunk of money - you carrying full risk, no thank you.

[Marvin]

Hi @haythorn_1

 

Personally I would count the risks. 

 

For me:

 

1. I would want the supplier to measure and take responsibility for any errors or the installers to measure and take responsibility for any errors. 

2. You haven't commented on the cost of the windows or their size - both things that are significant when installing. 

3. you would have to check with others but my opinion is your better doing it yourself if you know and understand what is required. I assume you would be putting the fire stops in at the same time..

4. If there ali clad timber windows I don't see you getting a scratch out of them like upvc windows, and this goes back to number 2: I would want to be sure the installers have successfully and properly installed Ali clad windows before. 

 

Don't forget how you are going to achieve the required FENSA certificate.

 

Good luck

 

Marvin

[Alan Ambrose]

Goodness. Except where you're craning in huge windows (I'm not) I plan to do myself. Just read the number of dodgy installs detailed here on BH by 'professional' installers.

 

>>> want the supplier to measure and take responsibility for any errors

 

Buy yourself a laser measure and check a few times. Control your risks, have a backup plan etc - it's not rocket surgery. 

[nod]

When measuring for windows and doors I cut a baton to the with and heigh and allow 10 mil Start will the largest opening 

Most windows are very easy to fit But if you don’t want to self fit Tgen ask a joiner You will get a far better install off a joiner Most window fitters tend to be quick and rough 

[Dave Jones]

10 hours ago, nod said:

When measuring for windows and doors I cut a baton to the with and heigh and allow 10 mil Start will the largest opening 

Most windows are very easy to fit But if you don’t want to self fit Tgen ask a joiner You will get a far better install off a joiner Most window fitters tend to be quick and rough 

 

exactly this. chippy while more expensive will take more care. 

[haythorn_1]

Thanks all.

 

@JohnMo my preference would be for a company to do it all, but for the Ali clad quotes I have it works out at almost double the price. I could get upvc (eg residence) for a similar price but then they aren’t as nice.

 

It’s about 40m2 of windows. Working out at ~40k for supply only or 70/80k for supply and install (with vat)

 

i don’t have any big windows as we are going for a traditional style. Largest is 2.4m x 1.2m but that has 4 sashes. Then we have some French doors with side windows that in openings 3m x 2m.

 

I am tempted to measure myself then ask my builder to fit.

 

we do have some bay windows that might be more challenging to measure. Allan bros do have some decent instructions.

[haythorn_1]

11 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

 

Buy yourself a laser measure and check a few times. Control your risks, have a backup plan etc - it's not rocket surgery. 

Any recommendations on which to get?

[AppleDown]

1 hour ago, haythorn_1 said:

Thanks all.

 

@JohnMo my preference would be for a company to do it all, but for the Ali clad quotes I have it works out at almost double the price. I could get upvc (eg residence) for a similar price but then they aren’t as nice.

 

It’s about 40m2 of windows. Working out at ~40k for supply only or 70/80k for supply and install (with vat)

 

i don’t have any big windows as we are going for a traditional style. Largest is 2.4m x 1.2m but that has 4 sashes. Then we have some French doors with side windows that in openings 3m x 2m.

 

I am tempted to measure myself then ask my builder to fit.

 

we do have some bay windows that might be more challenging to measure. Allan bros do have some decent instructions.

That doesn't sound right at all - why is it double for them to install? Install with my alu-clad windows are about £7k (without the airtightness gubbins as I'll do that myself). Total price around £40k for supply and install.

[haythorn_1]

3 hours ago, AppleDown said:

That doesn't sound right at all - why is it double for them to install? Install with my alu-clad windows are about £7k (without the airtightness gubbins as I'll do that myself). Total price around £40k for supply and install.

Those quotes are from different supplies.

 

i have specced triple glazing with Georgian bars which seems to be adding a bit to the overall cost.

 

The quote that I have from an installer was 5k, but then I would be taking the measuring risk.

[craig]

Supply only or supply and install? Whats the difference? It depends.

 

1: Supply only, you’re supplying all the measurements, you’re supplying the specs, the supplier processing your requirements and you taken on everything.

 

2: Supply and install, whats different to the above?

 

Your build, whether timber framed/brick and block or ICF for example. 90% of times ordering based on planned/built sizes is perfectly fine.

 

The only time you can get things wrong or should, is when you take into account floor levels and thresholds.

 

3: Supply and install, surveyed. 
 

You’ve just delayed your build by 10 weeks. You’ll need to have confirmed you’re using said supplier and install team. No else in their right mind would use someone elses survey.

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> Any recommendations on which to get?

 

Leica Disto maybe. 

[saveasteading]

Non Squareness of the openings I believe is a common error with diy. Ie measuring the widest bit.

 

I can only recall only one error by a professional out of hundreds of units. He immediately promised to get a replacement in a few days, but I changed the drawing and everyone was happy.

Contrast with ordering our own windows.  Got 2 wrong.  Our cost.

 

Moral. It is someone's risk.  You can't have the best of both worlds.

[craig]

43 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Moral. It is someone's risk.  You can't have the best of both worlds.

Exactly this.

[MikeSharp01]

On 16/07/2024 at 20:13, haythorn_1 said:

Measuring - should I pay for a window installer to do this? Is it that hard? My construction in brick and block so i presume worst case the opening could be adjusted?

yes - they will understand the window system so will make all the correct allowances and work out things like sil / transom heights for Building Control. 

[MikeSharp01]

Leica Disto maybe. 

2 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Leica Disto maybe. 

Expensive and good but very limited features - have a Disto, a Bosch and a Lidl (the Lidl one cost £15 - 1/10th of the other two) and works just as well as they do, does not have Bluetooth like the Bosch. On the Bosch Bluetooth operation tightens up the resolution to 0.1mm - who needs that on a building site!!!!!!

[saveasteading]

15 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

resolution to 0.1mm - who needs that on a building site!!!!!!

We do. There are plenty more approximations and they add up.

I'd also doubt that the £15 one (or any of them)  is that good outside of a testing lab.

[MikeSharp01]

7 hours ago, saveasteading said:

I'd also doubt that the £15 one (or any of them)  is that good outside of a testing lab.

Somewhere on here I did a site calibration of the Bosch, all my class one tapes and the total station. The Bosch came out well, +/- 0.3 mm over 10m IIRC while the class one tapes were a good way out and didn't agree being very subject to the vagaries of temperature.

 

 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, MikeSharp01 said:

class one tapes were a good way out 

The first few mm (hook end) can be a bit approimate but the tests will spread that over a few m.

With fibre tape, it's almost impossible to tension exactly right.

I did a school exercise on accuracy and approximation once, on a tennis court. The 4 long tapes I had gathered were very different. I had already binned some that were 100mm out in 30m.

 

I still like tapes though.

[haythorn_1]

Thanks all. It's been useful hearing peoples thoughts on this. Grand Designs makes it seem as though everyone always has problems with their windows not fitting.

 

Think I am leaning towards taking the risk of measuring them myself. Allan Brothers (and Outline who seem to make their aluclad) have decent instructions on how to measure.

 

Fitting the opening windows doesn't look too hard as you can remove the sash, so I might attempt those. I have a couple of fixed windows that I expect would be hard work as the heaviest 120kgs.

[saveasteading]

23 minutes ago, haythorn_1 said:

everyone always has problems with their windows not fitting.

I think this is genuine. People volunteering for GD are not going to be average. Their self confidence tends to be high, and they are out to save cost, indeed being watched doing it.

Their training comes during overcoming such errors,  which can be expensive. 

I think the usual error is as above. Rectangular windows not fitting trapezoidal openings.

 

What tolerances are you intending?

 

BTW. My main learning error was that a frame screw sticking out will break the glass.

Edited July 18 by saveasteading

[haythorn_1]

42 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

What tolerances are you intending?

 

10-15mm on each side - which is what the manufacturer suggests. Seems quite a lot?

 

43 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

I think the usual error is as above. Rectangular windows not fitting trapezoidal openings.

 

So to avoid this I measure the diagonals and if too far out I ask the builder to correct?

[torre]

Another approach to getting the sizing right is to use formers made to your planned sizes and build the brickwork to them, either timber or pre-made cavity closers (we're considering this to workaround windows with a long lead time causing delays if we wait to measure the built openings). That does mean taking on the risk for getting the opening sizings correct though.

[G and J]

On 16/07/2024 at 22:06, Marvin said:

Don't forget how you are going to achieve the required FENSA certificate.

We renovated a cottage in Norfolk and one luxury was some delightful sash windows, which we paid a lot for but we got a Fensa certificate.  So when the lights blew after only 7 years we knew we were ok.  Except the company had gone bust (i.e. had changed their name and walked away from all responsibilities) and Fensa gleefully told us we should have taken an insurance policy against the company failing, so it was our own fault.  Lovely.

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, haythorn_1 said:

measure the diagonals

Normally a good check of 'is it rectangular'  but if it is not, then I think you need a spirit level to get minimum w and minimum h. 

A cowboy window man told me he allowed 10mm on ground floor and 20mm first floor because nobody would notice.

That's a lot of mastic or whatever he used.