Help please on insulation options

[PeterW]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I repeat again, I got 65 rolls of 90mm Frametherm 35 from SIG for £1200 Either SIG are very cheap, or they made a mistake? Those prices are nore than double what I paid.

It wasn't meant to be a best price - was more that even online I can get a cheaper and better solution than the merchant price on Actis.

And I think someone cocked up on your order as I've no idea how they got it less than £20 a roll !!

[Jeremy Harris]

49 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Ask him for the acoustic performance of his product and how it meets the sound attenuation part of the Building Regs for use in internal separating walls....

Given the companies track record, do you really think he will give an honest answer to this question?  I don't, I think that the rep will most probably misrepresent the acoustic performance in a way that is tantamount to lying..................

[Declan52]

Go to a different builders merchants and ask for a price for what you want not what they want to sell you. Make it clear you only want a price for the frame therm type insulation not any other materials that he thinks you need to use. 

If that fails email knauf direct and explain the situation and could they give you a price direct or the contact details of someone who will be able to.

Your money so be firm and take no shat of anyone. Spend it on what you want for your build not what will get a rep a big bonus.

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

It wasn't meant to be a best price - was more that even online I can get a cheaper and better solution than the merchant price on Actis.

And I think someone cocked up on your order as I've no idea how they got it less than £20 a roll !!

 I have just looked it up. £1124.83 plus VAT for 65 rolls = £17.30 per roll plus vat.  I am not complaining and I won't be suggesting to them that they might have made a mistake.

[janedevon]

Thanks for all the advice i will try different suppliers in the morning, if the actis does as it says then by the time i add in some breather membrane, theres not actually a huge difference in price on first look, i take it that with the hybrid system the internal celotex or equivalent is not needed, obviously at daves price there is a difference however wether i can match that anywhere remains to be seen, maybe ill have to get you to order it for me dave  

[Jeremy Harris]

You're still faced with the very low decrement delay of the Actis stuff and it's near-non-existent acoustic insulation though, both problems that are resolved by using something like Frametherm or similar.  You also have the assurance that Knauf (and others) have never behaved as deceptively as Actis have, so are, in my view, orders of magnitude more trustworthy.

[PeterW]

4 hours ago, janedevon said:

Thanks for all the advice i will try different suppliers in the morning, if the actis does as it says then by the time i add in some breather membrane, theres not actually a huge difference in price on first look, i take it that with the hybrid system the internal celotex or equivalent is not needed, obviously at daves price there is a difference however wether i can match that anywhere remains to be seen, maybe ill have to get you to order it for me dave  

The Actis one goes up in 2 parts as far as I can see as it needs the membrane plus the battens etc. Its one area I would never skimp on - you can replace a cheap kitchen, you can't replace insulation without one heck of a mess !!

[janedevon]

First reply

 

Apologies I thought that Actis would be a good alternative to reach U Values.

 

Unfortunately we do not stock the Knauf insulation but we do have an alternative in isover.

 

Isover 90mm Frame Batt 35 – 6.70m2 per pack - £5.77m2

 

Recticel 30MM PIR- £10.30 per sheet

 

Recticel 100mm - £25.00 per sheet

 

Please do let me know if you have any further questions.

 

[PeterW]

That Recticel isn't a bad price but I can get the Frametherm for less than £4.60m2 online .... 

Have you got an account with this lot..? Not TP is it..??

[janedevon]

This apparently is minster part of jewsons no account just an email enquiry  im currently trying Tinhay here, TP i havent bothered with as so expensive on other items, im liking your plan of the frametherm 40 with the excess used to do the internal walls and maybe go 50mm celotex under rafters.

[Jeremy Harris]

You'll definitely have a better comfort level with that option, with it taking a lot longer for heat to soak through the insulation because of the longer decrement delay.  Handy being able to use the same stuff for internal wall acoustic deadening as well, and the acoustic deadening advantage will be noticeable with the roof, especially in heavy rain where Frametherm or similar will be better at keeping the noise down.

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, janedevon said:

This apparently is minster part of jewsons no account just an email enquiry  im currently trying Tinhay here, TP i havent bothered with as so expensive on other items, im liking your plan of the frametherm 40 with the excess used to do the internal walls and maybe go 50mm celotex under rafters.

Sounds like a plan - I've looked at 2 layers of 25mm with counter battens holding the first layer and then screwing boards through the next layer as it may work better but I need to check !

Seconds & Co had a lot of 20/25mm recently at silly prices hence my thoughts.

[janedevon]

Many thanks im appreciating your help!!!

[janedevon]

   This one from builders merchants

 

 

1	10150CTB325:4	25MM 2400X1200MM PIR INSULATION	52	each	8.33		433.16
2	FRE	TB4025 (16SHTS/PK - 6PKS/LIFT)
3	10150CGA3050:4	50MM 2400X1200MM PIR INSULATION	1	each	11.78		11.78
4	FRE	GA4050 (8SHTS/PK 6PKS/LIFT)
5	10150CGA3100:4	100MM 2400X1200MM PIR INSULATION	42	each	23.29		978.18
6	FRE	GA4100 (12SHTS/PK 2PKS/LIFT)
7	NS1:4	ISOVER TIMBER FRAME BATT 35	640	EACH	2.34		1497.60
8	FRE	90x1175x570mm (10/PK 16PK / PALLET)
9	FRE	ISOVER IN FULL PALLET QUANTS ONLY
10	NS1:4	ISOVER FRAME ROLL 40	508.2	M2	1.93		980.83
11	FRE	90mm X 2/570 X 10.13M 44PKS
12	NS1:4	ISOVER TIMBERFRAME BATT 40	560	EACH	1.91		1069.60
13	FRE	90x570x1175mm 14/PK 20PK/PALLET

[PeterW]

That looks much better !

[NSS]

On 26/06/2016 at 10:47, JSHarris said:

 

They really are an unethical company, aren't they?  I mean, when you approach a retailer for a quote for a product you do not expect that retailer to be got at by a manufacturer, to ignore your specific request and give you a quote for a different product.  For two retailers to do the same sounds very dodgy indeed, as it sounds close to being a cartel (which is illegal).

 

 

Here we go again. What evidence do you have to back up that statement? The fact that two retailers put forward Actis may simply be because they're making a better margin on it than the requested product, or they may even believe it to be the most appropriate solution. I'll be forwarding a link to this thread to the regional director at Actin as I'm sure he/they will be very interested to read your assertions that they are an unethical company.

Oh, and in a spirit of openness, perhaps you'd like to tell the forum which of your suppliers it is that you have a 'contractual' obligation to to have your blog online. Members may then wish to make up their own minds as to whom exactly may have been 'got at'.

[PeterW]

 

I don't think the comment is relating to the supplier, more that merchants haven't actually provided what was asked for and in one instance - internal wall sound insulation - provided a product that is wholly unsuitable and not being used in its correct manner as a thermal insulation. 

I'm aware - as are many - that the blog includes a series of reviews on the Sunamp unit which like a fair few others were released at a reduced price by the manufacturer in return for monitoring and usage data. I know that some of the issues Jeremy documented were fixed in later units and I'm pretty sure when this was discussed previously the agreement is a "warts and all" review - hardly biased IMO. 

[Jeremy Harris]

My comment was purely pointing out that TWO DIFFERENT SUPPLIERS had BOTH given quotes for a product that was completely different from the product they were asked to quote for and that it seemed very much as if something very unusual was going on behind the scenes for them to behave in such an odd way.  I've never had that happen to me and it seems to be very unusual behaviour, given that the builders merchant doesn't know the detail of the construction in which the asked for product will be used.  The fact that somehow the Actis rep seems to have been informed makes this seem as if at least one, perhaps both, of those BMs has been in contact with Actis and agreed to offer Actis when a customer asks for rockwool, a product that has completely different performance parameters.

Like many here, I've had dozens of quotes from builders merchants for materials, and not once has one of them given me a quote for a totally different product, with a very different range of performance parameters, than the one I've asked for.  The closest I've had is one Builders merchant who gave me a price for a Marshalls product alongside the quote for the Bradstone product I'd asked for, as he had the Marshalls in stock and would have to order in the Bradstone.

It is a fact (reported in the first few pages of this thread) that Actis have misrepresented their product performance in the past, they have had approvals revoked or withdrawn them and have been found to have made misleading advertising claims.  That isn't a personal view, that is fact and is easily verified.

My arrangement with Sunamp is transparent, always has been and has never been a secret.  Peter has reiterated the arrangement I and others have above accurately.

 

[ProDave]

I think the point here is that if I went to a builders merchant and asked for a quote for Frametherm, and they instead gave me a quote for Actis, which is a totally different product, then I would not be happy.

I think it would be okay for them to quote for an alternative earthwool type product if they clarified the quote with "this is a similar product but cheaper" but something totally different I would find outragous.

If you wonder why some of us are a bit suspicious of some of these multi foil types of insulation, it's because some of them have a track record of over rating their performance. Search other forums and you will find others saying the same.  None of us have an axe to grind, we all try and give good and honest advice, snd sometimes that advice may not be what you want to hear.

[Stones]

9 hours ago, NSS said:

Here we go again. What evidence do you have to back up that statement? The fact that two retailers put forward Actis may simply be because they're making a better margin on it than the requested product, or they may even believe it to be the most appropriate solution. I'll be forwarding a link to this thread to the regional director at Actin as I'm sure he/they will be very interested to read your assertions that they are an unethical company.

Can I ask why you have such a bee in your bonnet about this?

I would also be questioning why a supplier was quoting / pricing for a product that I hadn't asked for UNLESS they were being very clear that they couldn't supply the requested product or were offering it (as you suggest), as a more appropriate / cost effective alternative alongside the quote for the product requested as a comparison.  That doesn't appear to be the case here, which certainly me makes me wonder what on earth is going on.

 

 

[NSS]

1 hour ago, Stones said:

Can I ask why you have such a bee in your bonnet about this?

Because the 'unethical company' quote was clearly aimed at Actis (not as he now suggests the BMs), and the rest of the thread is littered with slurs by Jeremy that are either made directly or inferred against Actis. Quoting over a decade old findings which refer to tests of a previous generation of products and inferring that the claimed thermal performance of the current Actis offering is likely to be similarly mis-represented / cannot be trusted is like saying current Skoda cars are as poor as those that were the butt of jokes in the past.

[Declan52]

If you went into a butcher's and asked for sirloin steak and he gave you pork chops would you not think it was a bit strange. If you ask for a price for a particular product why would both merchants price up a completely different one. All sales reps get backhanders from companies in every line of work wether it be dinners out or golf days it's how buttering the wheels work.

If they had included the price for the earthwool and gave an option of the actis product then that would have been fair enough but they didn't.

[NSS]

13 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

If you went into a butcher's and asked for sirloin steak and he gave you pork chops would you not think it was a bit strange. If you ask for a price for a particular product why would both merchants price up a completely different one. All sales reps get backhanders from companies in every line of work wether it be dinners out or golf days it's how buttering the wheels work.

If they had included the price for the earthwool and gave an option of the actis product then that would have been fair enough but they didn't.

Sorry Declan, but I think maybe you're missing my point. In your scenario it is clearly the butcher that is acting strangely, not the farmer. I don't dispute that in Jane's case it sems odd that the BMs have provided a quote for Actis rather than the requested materials, but that does not to my mind give rise to an accusation that the manufacturer has 'got at' the supplier. Of course, if Jeremy can PROVE otherwise then it's a different matter. In the meantime it simply appears to be a continuing attempt to rubbish Actis, both the company and their product.

[DeeJunFan]

On 6/26/2016 at 10:40, janedevon said:

Basically the 2 firms i asked for a quote forwarded my info to an ACTIS rep who provided them with the information, identical rather than quote me for my requested products, i guess its hard sell in this area as a couple of builders i chatted to are both installing the same product on a couple of projects nearby.

Now i have the actis rep,offering to come for a site visit!!!

This is the bit that i would be very pissed off about.  Did you give them permission to forward your details onto a 3rd Party?  Is it even legal for them to do that?  Now you are open to unwanted sales calls based on the actions of these Building Merchants.  

I don't really care about the insulation companies that much.  There are plenty of firms selling less than advertised products, its buyer beware, which is why i find this forum and its members invaluable. For example there are loads of cheap ASHPs on ebay quoting a COP of 5, these are around 1K for a 16kw (non inverter) ASHP, but thanks to the information and advice given here i know there is no way this could be true so i should take everything else this person says with a pinch of salt.

Trust is a big thing to a self builder, you are literally putting your entire self into something and if you are put in a position where your trust is lost, then its gone and you are passionate about trying to inform other people.  Its the same reason you are passionate about the product you have chosen, and why you feel compelled to defend it.  Thats all great, everyone here just wants everyone else to be able to learn from their experiences and benefit from their passions.

 

[Nickfromwales]

12 minutes ago, DeeJunFan said:

 I don't really care about the insulation companies that much.  There are plenty of firms selling less than advertised products, its buyer beware, which is why i find this forum and its members invaluable. For example there are loads of cheap ASHPs on ebay quoting a COP of 5, these are around 1K for a 16kw (non inverter) ASHP, but thanks to the information and advice given here i know there is no way this could be true so i should take everything else this person says with a pinch of salt.

Trust is a big thing to a self builder, you are literally putting your entire self into something and if you are put in a position where your trust is lost, then its gone and you are passionate about trying to inform other people.  Its the same reason you are passionate about the product you have chosen, and why you feel compelled to defend it.  Thats all great, everyone here just wants everyone else to be able to learn from their experiences and benefit from their passions.

 

Very well said, and pretty much exactly what we're all about   

Actis can by all means come here and comment, as long as it's factual and not commercial. I for one would welcome it, but I doubt if they ( after reading the content of this thread fully ) would open themselves up to ridicule as it's doesn't appear that they would be able to defend their previous practices, and I fear it would just descend into a marketing squabble, much as we've seen before. 

Id be happy to be proved wrong.