Architect Fees

[flanagaj]

I am trying to understand whether Architects always base their fees on a percentage of the build cost or whether some will give you a fixed price to do the drawings, submit the planning application and then do the drawings for building regs.  We are finally exchanging and completing on our first plot on Friday, and my wife and I have decided that we want to try for a more contemporary designed dwelling.   The current dwelling is 200 M2 and we don't intend on increasing that.  Just looking to try and switch from clay tile to standing seam sealed roof and hidden guttering ..

 

Happy to spend 10k to get it right, and wondered whether that's a realistic budget?

[Conor]

Ours was based on the floor area, different rate per m² for each stage.

[SBMS]

33 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

I am trying to understand whether Architects always base their fees on a percentage of the build cost or whether some will give you a fixed price to do the drawings, submit the planning application and then do the drawings for building regs.  We are finally exchanging and completing on our first plot on Friday, and my wife and I have decided that we want to try for a more contemporary designed dwelling.   The current dwelling is 200 M2 and we don't intend on increasing that.  Just looking to try and switch from clay tile to standing seam sealed roof and hidden guttering ..

 

Happy to spend 10k to get it right, and wondered whether that's a realistic budget?

Is that 10k to get you to planning drawings or to a full Building regs/builders drawing pack?

[garrymartin]

It very much depends on the Architect or Architectural Practice and who will need to be involved in your discussions and designs as to the costs to expect, as does the size and complexity of your proposals.

 

As a very rough ballpark, as a percentage of build cost, you would typically be looking at 7% to 15%, or if engaging by the hour, £50 - £150 per hour. Of course, this depends on the seniority, skill, and experience of the Architect or Practice.

 

For our own potential project, for RIBA Stages 0-2: Brief Development and Concept Design, we'll be spending £9K+VAT, and that gets us the various site visits, discussions with planners, development of 3 alternative simple massing design options in plan and basic 3D form, discussions on options, meetings, quotes from professionals and consultants required, etc.

 

For RIBA Stage 3: Developed Design, it will be a further £9K+VAT and that will take us to a full Technical Details Consent application and will get us more developed drawings based on our design choices, Passivhaus assessment, collaboration with other consultants, discussions with planners, detailed Design and Access Statement, and refined site and dwelling drawings including everything needed for an application. This is for a design brief with a 220m2 main house and a 60m2 garage/workshop on a 0.25 acre site.

 

It's a very personal choice whether to involve an Architect or not, but for us, these initial costs are an investment in their expertise and experience and we hope, as the anecdote goes, that we'll recoup that cost many times over in the value they bring.

 

 

[flanagaj]

Ouch.  Looks like I am way off with the budget.  We are not looking for it to be Architect managed, but more to do with enabling us to create something very contemporary that the planners will like, and to a budget that works.

[flanagaj]

49 minutes ago, SBMS said:

Is that 10k to get you to planning drawings or to a full Building regs/builders drawing pack?

Was hoping the later, but if not, I'd be happy to spend more to get it right. 

[G and J]

We knew pretty much exactly the layout and 85% of the external design and we then shortlisted two architects  from looking at lots of their websites. 
 

We then met the chosen two on site and broadly talked through our plans. One was right on our wavelength and was happy to do just the parts we wanted (site survey, planning drawings and application support, then building regs level design and liaison with structural engineers).  
 

We got a quote for each bit and then went with it.  We figured the relationship and matching values and attitudes were too important to shop around on price.  
 

Why not work out what you want then go meeting?

[SBMS]

23 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

Was hoping the later, but if not, I'd be happy to spend more to get it right. 

I think it’s achievable with that budget. 
 

We were roughly £5k for up RIBA stage 4 (drawings for planning) and then another 4500 for the full drawing package. This is with a small boutique architect firm of 4 architects. Fantastic job, they did spatial modelling, massing of the building (in a 3d clay). They designed the whole house in a 3d game engine from the start so we can interact with it. We even did a VR session in their offices where we walked through the design and snagged any issues. It was pretty amazing. 
 

We benchmarked another architect practice that was well known and did similar things and they were a similar price. I would be asking questions like what technology do you use to produce designs. Both the firms we looked at build the model in a 3D engine (effectively unreal games engine) and this was a key thing. It meant we didn’t have to pay for ‘renderings’ or visuals. We had a link that we could jump to in a browser as we iterated on the design to walk around the house in detail. 
 

Other architects we talked to were clearly using more antiquated techniques,

CAD tools etc but for us the use of technology in the design process was great.

 

That and the usual flare for good design, comfort with innovative use, a wide portfolio of designed houses, comfort with one off build design and a design language that correlated with the type of house we were looking to design.  
 

And I refer back to the earlier point that this was all under 10k. So definitely do able.

[SBMS]

31 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

Ouch.  Looks like I am way off with the budget.  We are not looking for it to be Architect managed, but more to do with enabling us to create something very contemporary that the planners will like, and to a budget that works.

You’re not way off, that seems very expensive. 

[SBMS]

53 minutes ago, garrymartin said:

It very much depends on the Architect or Architectural Practice and who will need to be involved in your discussions and designs as to the costs to expect, as does the size and complexity of your proposals.

 

As a very rough ballpark, as a percentage of build cost, you would typically be looking at 7% to 15%, or if engaging by the hour, £50 - £150 per hour. Of course, this depends on the seniority, skill, and experience of the Architect or Practice.

 

For our own potential project, for RIBA Stages 0-2: Brief Development and Concept Design, we'll be spending £9K+VAT, and that gets us the various site visits, discussions with planners, development of 3 alternative simple massing design options in plan and basic 3D form, discussions on options, meetings, quotes from professionals and consultants required, etc.

 

For RIBA Stage 3: Developed Design, it will be a further £9K+VAT and that will take us to a full Technical Details Consent application and will get us more developed drawings based on our design choices, Passivhaus assessment, collaboration with other consultants, discussions with planners, detailed Design and Access Statement, and refined site and dwelling drawings including everything needed for an application. This is for a design brief with a 220m2 main house and a 60m2 garage/workshop on a 0.25 acre site.

 

It's a very personal choice whether to involve an Architect or not, but for us, these initial costs are an investment in their expertise and experience and we hope, as the anecdote goes, that we'll recoup that cost many times over in the value they bring.

 

 

Garry this seems really expensive. Is your design particularly complex and/or are you paying London prices?

[nod]

Fees vary wildly Floor area shouldn’t make any difference We are building a much larger  house than yours 

Its very easy to get carried away with design fees Foundations and anything structural will be done by the SE Floors roof will be pushed on to others 

[garrymartin]

9 hours ago, SBMS said:

Garry this seems really expensive. Is your design particularly complex and/or are you paying London prices?

 

So firstly, I can't tell you whether the design is particularly complex yet as I don't have one... 😉 It is an award-winning Architectural Practice, with more than one office, but it's not based in London. It was the most costly of all our quotes from our shortlist, but they were also streets ahead of their nearest competition in how comfortable we felt to be in their hands.

 

All of us make decisions about where we want to spend our budget, and how much we're prepared to spend on each item. Personally, this project will be my third home ever, and my first self-build - I don't move around a lot! Many others on this site are on their second, third, and more builds and have lived in many different houses. I don't have that wealth of experience, so I've chosen to engage someone in a specialist field to help me. I work in a senior position in the IT industry, and that's what my clients do every day of the week. Sure they can do some things themselves, but they trust that our teams have experience they don't and will perhaps approach something in a way they had not considered, improving their experience, reducing their risk, and providing an excellent return on their investment. This is what I am looking for from my Architect and why I was very careful about their choice. Cost is very relative; when you look at the work they will be doing, and the seniority and experience of the people I'll be working with, then I'm very comfortable that it is good value.

 

For those interested in the process, I have a design brief that lists all the things we'd like to achieve and the way we'd like to live, a small number of photos that show the design aesthetics we are drawn to, a list of known constraints (for example, there's a 3" PVC water main with a 6m easement that goes through the plot) and a bubble diagram that has all our desired rooms and their relationships to each other drawn on it. Our architects will take that and use their skill and experience to bring it to life for us in the specific context of the plot, its orientation, the surrounding buildings and features, the options for access, and a hundred and one other variables that all have a potential impact, many of which I would just not have had the skill or experience to consider.

 

Of course, assuming our appeal is ultimately successful... 🤣

 

 

 

 

[SimonD]

12 hours ago, flanagaj said:

Happy to spend 10k to get it right, and wondered whether that's a realistic budget?

 

It depends on where you are and who you choose. We're not a million miles away but we are caught by the Bath premium (i.e. a license for all trades and professionals to bump their prices up anywhere between 20% and 300% or more depending on how much money they think you've got, which is always loads if you live in a particular group of post codes, not to mention a Georgian townhouse). All our architect fee proposals came in at about £8k to £11k to take us to design and planning, not including building regs/construction drawings or SE design. But this was way before Covid, so no idea where the fees might have got to since then. The only percentage fee we got was for a ridiculous 7% of build cost all in full services throughout but specified number of site visits.

 

Best thing to do is get a few in to submit proposals for your project.

Edited June 12 by SimonD

[garrymartin]

11 minutes ago, SimonD said:

All our architect fee proposals came in at about £8k to £11k to take us to design and planning, not including building regs/construction drawings or SE design. But this was way before Covid, so no idea where the fees might have got to since then.

On a previous plot that we were unable to continue with (pre-COVID) the same practice I mentioned above quoted £7.5K+VAT for the work that is now £9K+VAT, so a 20% increase in about 4 years. The compounded inflation rate over the past 4 years in the UK is approximately 22.53% so not bad.

 

14 minutes ago, SimonD said:

Best thing to do is get a few in to submit proposals for your project.

This is really critical, as is taking the opportunity to talk to previous clients where possible.

[zzPaulzz]

We’ve spent 10k+vat to get to full planning approval (RIBA stage 0-3) which included two major iterations of the design to satisfy the planners.  They are asking for £8.5k plus VAT to do the RIBA stage 4 design work, alongside our SE and the timber frame company. They won’t take on the Principle Designer role.  After reading the comments here I think that sounds ok for our 180m2 new build in Suffolk. Thoughts?  

Edited August 31 by zzPaulzz

[Benpointer]

Interested in this topic as we have just got our first Architects quote (local RIBA practice).  

 

For plans only on a 160m2 house we are being quoted:

• Planning Approval design £9.4k + VAT
• Planning support to get through planning £1k + VAT
• Building regs approval drawings £7.5k + VAT

Topographic survey, Ecologist, Arboriculturist, SE fees, Planning fees excluded.

 

Heading towards £25k inc VAT, so probably 5-8% of the total build cost.  Seems pricey to me but we did quite like the architect.

 

We're actually struggling to find architects / architectural designers located in the south west who will do a modern design - some we have contacted have been slow to respond, which in itself puts me off using them.

 

Any recommendations?  We want someone based not too far away - in Wilts, Dorset or Somerset, ideally.

Edited Tuesday at 10:27 by Benpointer

[Dave Jones]

3 minutes ago, Benpointer said:

Interested in this topic as we have just got our first Architects quote (local RIBA practice).  

 

For plans only on a 160m2 house we are being quoted:

• Planning Approval design £9.4k + VAT
• Planning support to get through planning £1k + VAT
• Building regs approval drawings £7.5k + VAT

Topographic survey, Ecologist, Arboriculturist, SE fees, Planning fees excluded.

 

Heading towards £25k inc VAT so probably 5-8% of the total build cost.  Seems pricey to me but we did quite like the architect.

 

 

Lets break these down.

 

planning approval, they make a couple drawings you like. fill out a planning form, request a couple reports and add them and press submit £9.4k LOL. 

 

Real cost should be no more than £2.5

 

planning support = answering emails should be included in the initial rip off 9.4.

 

building regs, feed the drawing you already paidf for into plans software, 75% of it will be useless on site and have to be 'adjusted'.

 

Total tip off. Never ever pay a % of your build as a fee to anyone. your paying a postcode lottery for the rip off architect.

 

Couple grand is plenty for a normal run of the mill design 99.9% of people use. Grand designs type then fair enough 5-10k.

 

Building regs drawings should take no more than a day to produce, even rip off architects cant charge more than £750 a day.

[Benpointer]

6 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

 

Lets break these down.

 

planning approval, they make a couple drawings you like. fill out a planning form, request a couple reports and add them and press submit £9.4k LOL. 

 

Real cost should be no more than £2.5

 

planning support = answering emails should be included in the initial rip off 9.4.

 

building regs, feed the drawing you already paidf for into plans software, 75% of it will be useless on site and have to be 'adjusted'.

 

Total tip off. Never ever pay a % of your build as a fee to anyone. your paying a postcode lottery for the rip off architect.

 

Couple grand is plenty for a normal run of the mill design 99.9% of people use. Grand designs type then fair enough 5-10k.

 

Building regs drawings should take no more than a day to produce, even rip off architects cant charge more than £750 a day.

Thanks Dave, an interesting perspective and it may well be valid.  

 

I should say though that we do not have a clear picture of the design we are looking for in our heads.  We do feel we need help translating our requirements and the constraints of the plot into a design that we can really commit to.   I have tried to assemble the rooms we want into a design that works and I've struggled.

 

We're happy to pay a bit extra for that creativity. 

[ToughButterCup]

On 11/06/2024 at 21:31, flanagaj said:

I am trying to understand whether Architects always base their fees on a percentage of the build cost or whether some will give you a fixed price to do the drawings, ....

 

Generalisations are sometimes dangerous. Ours didn't

 

Here's the detail

[garrymartin]

As you can see from my previous messages, our fees will be more than that. It's difficult to do direct comparisons because we don't know the details of your scheme, but it sounds to me like you understand the value you are looking for and what an architect will provide. Like us, you don't have a clear picture of the design. We have information about how we want to live, and the rooms we want along with their interaction with each other, but we are leaving it to our architects to do the hard work of interpreting those requirements and coming up with a design that makes the most of the plot and is sensitive to the surrounding area (we have three listed properties nearby). Our quote also creating some options in the early stages, and also includes all the PH design and modelling. It isn't just the drawings, it's a Design and Access Statement for planning too as well as a bunch of other stuff.

 

@Dave Jones  We're going to have to agree to disagree on your view of architects and the value they can bring I'm afraid. Personally, I'd say it's a reasonable quote. I don't have BR drawings experience yet, but that does feel a little on the high side though.

 

[zzPaulzz]

51 minutes ago, Benpointer said:

Interested in this topic as we have just got our first Architects quote (local RIBA practice).  

 

For plans only on a 160m2 house we are being quoted:

• Planning Approval design £9.4k + VAT
• Planning support to get through planning £1k + VAT
• Building regs approval drawings £7.5k + VAT

Topographic survey, Ecologist, Arboriculturist, SE fees, Planning fees excluded.

 

Heading towards £25k inc VAT, so probably 5-8% of the total build cost.  Seems pricey to me but we did quite like the architect.

 

We're actually struggling to find architects / architectural designers located in the south west who will do a modern design - some we have contacted have been slow to respond, which in itself puts me off using them.

 

Any recommendations?  We want someone based not too far away - in Wilts, Dorset or Somerset, ideally.

I was quite disappointed with our architect’s designs: lots of wasted space and awkward flow.  In the end I strongly steered them towards the end. We like the house but it’s not a hugely inspiring design which is just as well as the planning process was painfully restrictive -as the architect had warned us it would be.  However, after seeing the list of things they aren’t covering in their Stage 4 quote I’m considering my options for the next stage. .  

[mjc55]

So I have some experience of this, albeit as an Architectural Technologist.  I only worked on extensions never on new build, and mostly relatively small scale stuff.

 

I retrained, having worked in IT for many years and so I didn't finish my degree until 2012, but having worked for myself anyway in my IT years, and having the confidence that comes with age I immediately set up on my own.

 

What I found was that it was very difficult  to price for work at anywhere near that which more experienced architectural practices did. As I got more experienced I did up my prices but once I got past a certain (relatively low) price I just did not get the work.

 

I do think that t he prices charged by a lot of Architects are not based on their cost/profit basis, and I certainly think that percentage of build cost pricing is just not justifiable.  There may be a tenuous link between the two but at best it is just that.  The amount of work in designing etc. a build that will cost 200k and 400k (e.g.) will not be vastly different, so in that case I just don't see the justification for what would be essentially a doubling in price.

 

I certainly do agree with @Dave Jones above that the costs for the design and planning stages can be vastly inflated, there is much more work in the technical aspects of a build IMHO.  

 

At the end of the day I guess that peoples expectations do come into it somewhat, if you are expecting to pay many thousands then the quotes received will not come as a surprise, and of course not all architects are alike, there are better and worse as in all businesses.  I suppose I can count myself lucky that these costs will not be part of our own self build process.

[garrymartin]

46 minutes ago, mjc55 said:

I certainly think that percentage of build cost pricing is just not justifiable

Percentage pricing seems to be much more a commercial building thing than a residential dwelling.

[Mr Blobby]

2 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

 

Never ever pay a % of your build as a fee to anyone.

 

This. Do not ever pay a % fee. 

 

And get a builder to look over the plans before going to planning. 

We asked our 'passive house' architect for a simple design to passive house standard.  We got big full height windows, parapet walls and voids, all costly to build and very bad for PHPP. 

Architects just can't help it.  It's not their money so they will design in all sorts of unecessary crap.

[mjc55]

50 minutes ago, garrymartin said:

Percentage pricing seems to be much more a commercial building thing than a residential dwelling.

 

Hmm.  Are you saying that from experience?  Not sure I agree.  However I would probably struggle to justify me saying that so it's difficult isn't it.