Thought on initial quote

[Russell griffiths]

22 minutes ago, Zak S said:

Very interested in this and would like to understand a bit more as to what it means and how to create this?

 

Would VIBRO be an option for the existing property once the roof is removed? With vibro main expense is the initial set up cost but I was not sure if VIBRO could be an option for remodel and extension?

Unless I’m wrong which I’m happy to be. 
you won’t get a vibrio rig on your site without knocking the bungalow down, I’ve never seen a small one. 
you can get small piling rigs to drive a steel driven pile, or a small rig for a bored pile, but all the vibrio ones are huge bits of kit. 
ask @ToughButterCup  

I believe to underpin with a steel driven pile they smash it in close to the original foundation and underpin the original with a concrete cap. 

[Moonshine]

28 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

you won’t get a vibrio rig on your site without knocking the bungalow down, I’ve never seen a small one. 

 

Go Giken, bloody expensive i imagine but amazing bits of kit to watch.

 

Edited March 28 by Moonshine

[Moonshine]

30 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

you can get small piling rigs to drive a steel driven pile

 

Ah you might have been referring to the Giken

[Russell griffiths]

50 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

 

Go Giken, bloody expensive i imagine but amazing bits of kit to watch.

 

I think your getting your piling techniques mixed up. 
he’s talking about vibrated stone columns to build a house on top of. 

[Mr Punter]

I have a bad feeling about this one...

[Moonshine]

17 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

I have a bad feeling about this one...

 

I am getting flash backs to another eye watering tender that got posted for a refurb in London and the chap seemed to get his pant's pulled down by his 'mate'. I can't find the thread now.

 

found them

 

https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/32386-what-are-your-thoughts-on-this-project-estimate/

 

https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/37290-dispute-around-construction-costs-also-posted-in-the-finance-forum-wasnt-sure-which-was-best/

 

Edited March 28 by Moonshine

[saveasteading]

3 hours ago, Zak S said:

would like to understand a bit more as to what it means and how to create this

Leave a gap between the 2 differing buildings. link them with a corridor or utility rooms or orangery or whatever. then if one of the buildings moves relative to the other, as is very likely, the damage is only at the abutment of the link to the building. You can design it to be a failure point that is readily repaired, or even flexibly so that it absorbs some movement.

 

To be sure that we're talking about the same thing By vibro I mean vibro replacement. a rig vibrates a hole in the ground and fills it simultaneously with gravel. Thus it compresses the ground sideways and it all becomes denser and stronger. the pile of gravel does transfer load downwards too, but that is a bonus. I've specified it several times ( and always used Keller) but some ground is so loose that it can't be used. The machines are sometimes smaller than the one shown. I haven't seen water being used as the sketch shows here.

 

[Zak S]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

 

To be sure that we're talking about the same thing

We are talking about the same vibro. I spoken with Keller (Derek I think) as well as Van Elle and both have seen the Geo Tech report and said Vibro was an option. But the question is can Vibro be applied without demolishing the building? I have not asked this question yet.

 

Vibro process needs to be bottom feed (without water) as water table is quite high. If we can employ Vibro with out clearing the site then it would be amazing.

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

Leave a gap between the 2 differing buildings.

This would require the reassign of the scheme significantly and I don't have any idea as to what the new design scheme might look like but would mean doubling the architecture fees.

 

[Zak S]

3 hours ago, Moonshine said:

 

I am getting flash backs to another eye watering tender that got posted for a refurb in London and the chap seemed to get his pant's pulled down by his 'mate'. I can't find the thread now.

 

found them

 

https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/32386-what-are-your-thoughts-on-this-project-estimate/

 

https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/37290-dispute-around-construction-costs-also-posted-in-the-finance-forum-wasnt-sure-which-was-best/

 

What an amazing thread! 👏  thanks. I will rather live as is and refurbish as a banglow than per sqm refurb cost of that much.

[saveasteading]

4 hours ago, Zak S said:

I spoken with Keller (Derek I think)

That's the man. He will tell you straight if it can't be done, and other options.

[Alan Ambrose]

I think the short answer is you need two more quotes - preferably from people who are not fazed by the job and want the business.

[Haylingbilly]

Sorry, I am another vote for knock down and rebuild, I think you are crazy to pursue the extension route. You will get more competitive quotes for this as builders prefer the simplicity of this and you will get much more predictability on costings. I have a friend doing a not dissimilar major renovation and build and a neighbour doing a refurb - they are both well over 30% above the "quotes" due to unforeseen issues which is causing them no end of stress financially. I have yet to meet someone who has done a similar scale renovation and extension without major cost over run. This is the norm on rennovations and exception on a new build unless they have either budgeted incorrectly.

[Zak S]

So

2 hours ago, Haylingbilly said:

Sorry, I am another vote for knock down and rebuild, I think you are crazy to pursue the extension route. You will get more competitive quotes for this as builders prefer the simplicity of this and you will get much more predictability on costings. I have a friend doing a not dissimilar major renovation and build and a neighbour doing a refurb - they are both well over 30% above the "quotes" due to unforeseen issues which is causing them no end of stress financially. I have yet to meet someone who has done a similar scale renovation and extension without major cost over run. This is the norm on rennovations and exception on a new build unless they have either budgeted incorrectly.

So when I think the quote for extension and remodel is too much do we really think rebuild will be cheaper even after including  significant amount of finance cost and mortgage complication.

 

Rebuild is out of question for finance management reasons unless I win a lottery to pay the mortgage. I am more than happy to do work in stage or do less work to manage the work but rebuild will cost around £1million and that plus other reasons make it a impossible. 

 

The key question for me is that how do i get value for money quote and what should be that number. Once the planning comes through I will go to QS and also speak couple of other builders. I think one  has indicated he (European) would only work on Labour only basis with me sorting all the materials.

Edited March 29 by Zak S

[Haylingbilly]

2 hours ago, Zak S said:

So

So when I think the quote for extension and remodel is too much do we really think rebuild will be cheaper even after including  significant amount of finance cost and mortgage complication.

 

Rebuild is out of question for finance management reasons unless I win a lottery to pay the mortgage. I am more than happy to do work in stage or do less work to manage the work but rebuild will cost around £1million and that plus other reasons make it a impossible. 

 

The key question for me is that how do i get value for money quote and what should be that number. Once the planning comes through I will go to QS and also speak couple of other builders. I think one  has indicated he (European) would only work on Labour only basis with me sorting all the materials.

Yes, I would have thought so. You may get the quote you have down, but there will be many other costs you haven't thought about and then many other unforeseen cost. If we understand your build correctly all you are retaining of your bungalow is the foundations and some walls. Without exception the advice you have been given on this forum is to rebuild and if you do decide to ignore it and continue down the renovation route, please do come back in 2 years time and let us know whether you would do the same again...

[Zak S]

 

18 minutes ago, Haylingbilly said:

please do come back in 2 years time and let us know whether you would do the same again...

I will prefer the rebuild if I have the money to afford it all on my own without recourse to financing but unfortunately that is not the case. Just the finance cost to fund the rebuild is 230k including development loan/remortgage/bridging and early repayment on the mortgage and then moving go higher interest rate once the development is complete. 

 

I just cannot believe rebuild will be worth that much extra. Plus there is no doubt rebuild will cost a bit more but agree it will be better over all product. I just cannot fund 400-500k extra for a marginally better product.

 

The payback period on that will be more than 50 years which is not worth it hence I will happily do the work in stages or reduce the overall work.

 

Though, I appreciate all the advice regarding the rebuild but unfortunately that is not question here. Question is what is the reasonable breakdown of the elements within the tender and how could the cost be lowered. Some very helpful advice is here in terms of taking further quotes which I will do.

Edited March 29 by Zak S

[MikeSharp01]

21 minutes ago, Zak S said:

will prefer the rebuild if I have the money to afford it all on my own without recourse to financing but

Have you looked at knock down and re-building in sections so you live in the remainder and move over to the first bit of build as it is finished and in the end you have rebuilt it? Would take some organising but might be made to work out. 

[Zak S]

5 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Have you looked at knock down and re-building in sections so you live in the remainder and move over to the first bit of build as it is finished and in the end you have rebuilt it? Would take some organising but might be made to work out. 

Yes definitely a good idea and that what it might turn out to be but thinking in that way will help organising things. Great advice.

[Haylingbilly]

17 hours ago, Zak S said:

 

I will prefer the rebuild if I have the money to afford it all on my own without recourse to financing but unfortunately that is not the case. Just the finance cost to fund the rebuild is 230k including development loan/remortgage/bridging and early repayment on the mortgage and then moving go higher interest rate once the development is complete. 

 

I just cannot believe rebuild will be worth that much extra. Plus there is no doubt rebuild will cost a bit more but agree it will be better over all product. I just cannot fund 400-500k extra for a marginally better product.

 

The payback period on that will be more than 50 years which is not worth it hence I will happily do the work in stages or reduce the overall work.

 

Though, I appreciate all the advice regarding the rebuild but unfortunately that is not question here. Question is what is the reasonable breakdown of the elements within the tender and how could the cost be lowered. Some very helpful advice is here in terms of taking further quotes which I will do.

I don't get why it is so much more expensive to finance a rebuild vs a renovation. I think the advice is that the costs to do the building work are likely to be very similar whichever route you took (granted you may need to fund the VAT until you can reclaim). If you can fund the renovation with a standard residential mortgage then am sure you could fund the rebuild with a self build mortgage - the difference is going to be negligible. I'd have a look at funding options as 230k seems crazy expensive - I'd be amazed if you couldn't do it for les than that. And in all honesty I would imagine it would actually turn out cheaper to fund the rebuild than renovation as it will be much faster and so borrowing money for much less time.

[Zak S]

22 hours ago, Haylingbilly said:

I don't get why it is so much more expensive to finance a rebuild vs a renovation. I think the advice is that the costs to do the building work are likely to be very similar whichever route you took (granted you may need to fund the VAT until you can reclaim). If you can fund the renovation with a standard residential mortgage then am sure you could fund the rebuild with a self build mortgage - the difference is going to be negligible. I'd have a look at funding options as 230k seems crazy expensive - I'd be amazed if you couldn't do it for les than that. And in all honesty I would imagine it would actually turn out cheaper to fund the rebuild than renovation as it will be much faster and so borrowing money for much less time.

Now add the development loan to include land + ERP as currently on 5year term + moving onto hight mortgage interest rate after completion. With assumption it would take 18month to rebuild, it could add up nearly c275-300k.  

 

Simply Finance cost are astronomical for self build developmental loan. Self build with funding from bank eats all the profit that a project has. Self build is only worth for a small proportion of overall development cost or if you are planning to sell to realise whatever profit has left.