JamesPa Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 (edited) 18 hours ago, mk1_man said: Hopefully get quote back soon, they are taking their time to do the heat loss so hopefully that may be a good sign. i will post findings once they arrive. I was certainly impressed with their approach to me installing myself when we discussed option on the phone, they even do free vendor training so you can still access longer warranties etc If it wasn't for trying to access BUS grant then I would simply purchase the heat pump and install myself keeping the boiler in situ for possibly the hot water heating. My Viessmann boiler is currently setup as a 4 pipe system anyway, 22mm hot temp circuit for uvc and a 28mm circuit at low temp for underfloor. Please keep us posted on how this progresses. I'm very much of the opinion hat this sort of separation of design (and possibly commissioning) from installation is the way forward in many circumstances. Fundamentally system design, and to an extent commissioning, is an intellectual/problem solving skill whereas installation is a high level craft skill. Some people are lucky enough to be good at both craft and intellectual subjects, but relatively few. Edited March 12 by JamesPa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 1 hour ago, JamesPa said: Fundamentally system design, and to an extent commissioning, is an intellectual/problem solving skill whereas installation is a high level craft skill In the olden days, when I was a lad, one of the few jobs you could get with no qualifications was as a 'mate' to a qualified tradesman. To get an office job required some 'O' levels, usually English and Mathematics. These days, just about all the trades need quite good GCSE results, and then there is the on site safety courses. Do all the school failures end up in the office these days, doing the intellectual work? I have worked for small businesses where the owners are proud to point out that they have no qualifications, they are usually crooks and bad business people. An example was when I made steamrooms and we had to fit one where the steam generator was several metres from the cabin. I queried how well this would work as there is back pressure in the long pipework and lots of energy loss. Got old by the MD that I was talking nonsense. It did not work as I tended. So the 'solution' was a larger steam generator. That did not work either. (expletive deleted)ing numpties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonD Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 16 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: These days, just about all the trades need quite good GCSE results, and then there is the on site safety courses. No, they don't. Trades course are often sold to those who've failed their GCSE as an alternative option - i.e. all is not lost, you still have a future! I know several in the trade who have done apprenticeships and have no school quals and they also say the college part of their apprenticeship was rubbish and they learned everything on the job. A lot of the training providers ar private so it's in their interests to pass all their students. This isn't to say anyone with GCSEs is in any way superior. Way back when I was part of annual graduate recruitment for a well known multi-national, we had to implement a maths and English test because a lot of graduates, even those from top unis didn't have basic maths and English skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk1_man Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 I have had the quote back and I have to say really happy with proposal. Basically it is proposed as an 11.2kw Mitsubishi Ecodan along with all associated wifi adapter, fixing, valves etc also a new 250l stainless cylinder with 28mm 3m2 heat pump specific coils - spec looks really good. This is for either myself or a local (non mcs) plumber to do install and then company comes and commissions it. Cost all in is £9000 but with the £7500 back from grant I pay £1500 The Mitsubishi wasn't on my radar and had looked for the new Samsung R290 unit. What are peoples thoughts on the Ecodan, will I get decent figures if installed correctly. I am looking to have no buffer / LLH, no mixers or pumps on the underfloor manifolds (ground and 1st floors) single large zone with no actuators etc I understand this gives best efficiency? Appreciate peoples views, especially those with Mitsubishi units. I still think the 11.2kw is on the large side, curious as to know what it will modulate down to ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 (edited) 7 minutes ago, mk1_man said: I have had the quote back and I have to say really happy with proposal. Basically it is proposed as an 11.2kw Mitsubishi Ecodan along with all associated wifi adapter, fixing, valves etc also a new 250l stainless cylinder with 28mm 3m2 heat pump specific coils - spec looks really good. This is for either myself or a local (non mcs) plumber to do install and then company comes and commissions it. Cost all in is £9000 but with the £7500 back from grant I pay £1500 The Mitsubishi wasn't on my radar and had looked for the new Samsung R290 unit. What are peoples thoughts on the Ecodan, will I get decent figures if installed correctly. I am looking to have no buffer / LLH, no mixers or pumps on the underfloor manifolds (ground and 1st floors) single large zone with no actuators etc I understand this gives best efficiency? Appreciate peoples views, especially those with Mitsubishi units. I still think the 11.2kw is on the large side, curious as to know what it will modulate down to ? Thats all very encouraging and the concept of separating commissioning/design from install is clearly potentially a sensible way forward. 11.2kW sounds a bit toppy from the info you have given, but... Mitsubishi publish comprehensive performance tables (probably the moist comprehensive and certainly the easiest to find/read) tables in their Ecodan_ATW_Databook. Suggest you search for the latest version (if you cant find it post again). The tables include min output as a function of OAT and FT (ie exactly what you need to do the design right!). From memory its about 4kW at 40C/12C, but you need to check for your design parameters Edited March 14 by JamesPa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonD Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 26 minutes ago, mk1_man said: I have had the quote back and I have to say really happy with proposal. Basically it is proposed as an 11.2kw Mitsubishi Ecodan along with all associated wifi adapter, fixing, valves etc also a new 250l stainless cylinder with 28mm 3m2 heat pump specific coils - spec looks really good. This is for either myself or a local (non mcs) plumber to do install and then company comes and commissions it. Cost all in is £9000 but with the £7500 back from grant I pay £1500 So just to confirm, this is what you pay them? And if you employ a plumber to do the install, you would have to pay for that separately and in addition to this price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk1_man Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 (edited) Correct, would have to pay plumber, however my plan is to plumb myself, not complicated and have already done majority of existing. Even if you were to pay plumber it is at around £200 - £250 per day for a couple of days, much cheaper than the the £4k - 5k other 'mcs' companies are ripping people off to the tune of. Alto Energy run their own free training, so as long as your installation plumber or you yourself as the self builder attends the installation still qualifies for the Mitsubishi 5 - 7 year warranty. Edited March 14 by mk1_man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 we were in same boat, in the end just bought heat pump and cylinder and had plumber fit it. It's not rocket science really only a flow and return. Panasonic unit, plate heat exchanger and couple bog standard 250L cylinders had change from 5K. Took plumber half a day to install, 2 hours for sparky to connect 2 wires and it fired up no drama. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 On 14/03/2024 at 12:06, mk1_man said: Alto Energy run their own free training, so as long as your installation plumber or you yourself as the self builder attends the installation still qualifies for the Mitsubishi 5 - 7 year warranty. Now that makes sense to do it yourself. 9 hours ago, Dave Jones said: in the end just bought heat pump and cylinder and had plumber fit it. It's not rocket science really only a flow and return. I too installed my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfiejim Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 On 14/03/2024 at 12:06, mk1_man said: Correct, would have to pay plumber, however my plan is to plumb myself, not complicated and have already done majority of existing. Even if you were to pay plumber it is at around £200 - £250 per day for a couple of days, much cheaper than the the £4k - 5k other 'mcs' companies are ripping people off to the tune of. Alto Energy run their own free training, so as long as your installation plumber or you yourself as the self builder attends the installation still qualifies for the Mitsubishi 5 - 7 year warranty. Great find ! Thanks for sharing this information. This looks like a smart niche that Alto have set up. Do you know if this is available nationwide? Mitsubishi offer a Coastal protected unit for salt damage. I have a concerns about unit corrosion due to location. I think I'll contact them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 13 minutes ago, Surfiejim said: Do you know if this is available nationwide Let me know if they do, I may join you on the course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 @Surfiejim Seems the course is every month up in Carterton, Oxfordshire. Makes for a long day out. https://www.altoenergy.co.uk/heat-pump-training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk1_man Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 They also do the training remotely via Microsoft teams. I have been incredibly impressed with AltoEnergy and their feedback is excellent. After a bit of back and forth have decided on final spec, cost etc. What are peoples views on the R32 Mitsubishi Ecodan heat pumps, especially the 8.5kW unit ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfiejim Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 On 20/03/2024 at 07:15, SteamyTea said: @Surfiejim Seems the course is every month up in Carterton, Oxfordshire. Makes for a long day out. https://www.altoenergy.co.uk/heat-pump-training If I wasn't too busy, I be interested. However, it looks like this is for heating engineers. I'm not sure I have the prerequisites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 54 minutes ago, Surfiejim said: If I wasn't too busy, I be interested. However, it looks like this is for heating engineers. I'm not sure I have the prerequisites. not sure why not having the prerequisites should be a barrier. Based on what we hear on this forum and others, a fair few heat pump installers/system designers don't have the pre-requisites for doing heat pump system design/installation, and they are charging for the service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk1_man Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 AltoEnergy openly promote the self builder to install heat pump and go on training course. The only thing that would need assistance is a plumber with g3 to install cylinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonD Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 4 hours ago, Surfiejim said: If I wasn't too busy, I be interested. However, it looks like this is for heating engineers. I'm not sure I have the prerequisites. Just call them and ask to go on the course, then you'll know for sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 22 minutes ago, mk1_man said: need assistance is a plumber with g3 to install cylinder. Or do the course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpener Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 On 12/03/2024 at 15:27, JamesPa said: Please keep us posted on how this progresses. I'm very much of the opinion hat this sort of separation of design (and possibly commissioning) from installation is the way forward in many circumstances. 9 hours ago, mk1_man said: AltoEnergy openly promote the self builder to install heat pump and go on training course. Looks very interesting. Am returning to this theme as am getting frustrated with my potential installers, they applied successfully for the BUS voucher but now seem unable to install before it lapses. Alto don't list Vaillant on their web site but I will enquire, don't want all the design work around their 12W Arotherm Plus to go to waste. @markocosic posted a thread on LinkedIn here about design-only and MCS umbrella schemes. As that was last September it would be good if he could give us an update to the list here and let us know what he eventually did. Octopus' web site declines to quote at all for a house in the SW. Good Energy's web site have just re-quoted me £11200 net after BUS for 2 x 12 kW Midea, based on what data I have no idea, maybe looked up the EPC online. Last year it was just 1 x 16kW Midea for £6734 (after the then £5k grant) which was at least a better match for my calculated 12kW heat loss. Underwhelmed by their process though their tame EPC surveyor good value at £60. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markocosic Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 I gave up on that router @sharpener - those schemes are only of interest (or rather you are only of interest to them) if you are intending to do multiple installations / become a regular installer. Currently back in Lithuania finishing the cabin build. Loose plans to work with a decent UK installer (with their own MCS certs) interested in demonstrating compact installations on something of a quid pro quo basis but it'll still be reassuringly expensive to do. R290 and doors and the need to follow manufacturer guidance under MCS to get BUS are a problem. Meanwhile I'll take some pleasure in holding MCS feet to the fire via the ASA for some of the demonstrably false claims they're making about how amazing they are. Partly for karma. Partly to erode their stranglehold on the industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 33 minutes ago, markocosic said: Meanwhile I'll take some pleasure in holding MCS feet to the fire via the ASA for some of the demonstrably false claims they're making about how amazing they are. Partly for karma. Partly to erode their stranglehold on the industry Well done! If at any time another voice would help please PM me. I'm well fed up with this industry and the way Government seems to rely on people who clearly have vested interests to inform them. I have tried several avenues to get a seat on a table somewhere which might make a difference, but with no success (yet). As if the industry itself weren't enough, I'm also doing battle with my LPA which wants me to achieve 25dB(A) at the most affected assessment point, which is a ludicrous requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReedRichards Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 On 22/03/2024 at 11:58, JamesPa said: I'm also doing battle with my LPA which wants me to achieve 25dB(A) at the most affected assessment point, which is a ludicrous requirement. So "near Stansted Airport" but not under the flight path? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 12 minutes ago, ReedRichards said: So "near Stansted Airport" but not under the flight path? Under the flight path for landing some of the time actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReedRichards Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 17 hours ago, JamesPa said: Under the flight path for landing some of the time actually. Then it seems ridiculous to get picky about the noise made by a heat pump; get the LPA to worry about the noise made by the planes. Long long ago I lived in Ealing and my building very occasionally found itself on the flight path of the planes going into Heathrow. You could not hear anything else at all when a plane was passing overhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted March 28 Share Posted March 28 1 hour ago, ReedRichards said: Long long ago I lived in Ealing and my building very occasionally found itself on the flight path of the planes going into Heathrow. I went to school near Brize Norton, now that could get noisy, especially when Concorde was doing low level sound tests. 06:05 AM every morning a VC10 would pass overhead, that was our alarm clock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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