MikeSharp01 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 11 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Let's see after the budget. Yep - I am reminded of my time at Marineville - commander Shaw would calmly announce over the base tannoy that "anything can happen in the next half hour." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 7 minutes ago, JamesPa said: Agree, but the government doesn't it seems But only with PD which is weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 10 minutes ago, joe90 said: But only with PD which is weird. Im not sure its weird. Just some "chums" have influenced policy such that they can make out like bandits. Im expecting that £7.5K to go up a lot more yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 46 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said: Not the best Idea as you can claim the £7500 grant, you can still do some of the work, get the price down to the grant plus less than the unit will cost you, get it installed and commissioned for the cost of just the Heat Pump Not sure how you would be allowed to do any work yourself, as the work has to be done by MSC contractor to get the grant. All things being equal the cost delta on a new build is the difference in cost between decent boiler and heat pump, everything else is basically the same. So really should be £1000 or less. My cost delta if I hadn't installed the gas boiler first, would be around £500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 1 hour ago, JohnMo said: Not sure how you would be allowed to do any work yourself, as the work has to be done by MSC contractor to get the grant Well depending on the contractor you could probably do some yourself. Basically get the plumbing, DHW and electrics ready so that the job amounts to 'connect up the ASHP unit and commission it' (like connecting up a new boiler - only easier and no problem with gas safe.) The problem it of course to find a cooperative contractor, but some might be interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 1 hour ago, Roger440 said: 1 hour ago, joe90 said: But only with PD which is weird. Im not sure its weird. Just some "chums" have influenced policy such that they can make out like bandits. Strangely, I find myself agreeing with you on this one. I fear that the Civil Service doesn't recruit enough people with an engineering background to challenge in a robust way what industry tells them, and very few MPs have any kind of scientific/engineering training. So on technical matters they are probably more or less helpless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpener Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 5 minutes ago, JamesPa said: very few MPs have any kind of scientific/engineering training Here's a list of those claiming an interest. Of those I think only Michael Fabricant is a chartered engineer, though there was one on the opposition benches as well at one point. Not sure you could say he was a serious engineer, Therese Coffey is not a serious anything but still makes the list. 1 hour ago, JohnMo said: Not sure how you would be allowed to do any work yourself Fitting the UFH and rads beforehand for example, my quote has got £1800 in it for rads alone (not a newbuild). Maybe installing the cylinder and pipework too, not sure exactly how "installing a heat pump" is defined. OFGEM guidance for property owners has the following, which seems to positively encourage self-builders to contribute their own labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 22 minutes ago, JamesPa said: Strangely, I find myself agreeing with you on this one. I fear that the Civil Service doesn't recruit enough people with an engineering background to challenge in a robust way what industry tells them, and very few MPs have any kind of scientific/engineering training. So on technical matters they are probably more or less helpless. Strangely?, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 2 hours ago, JohnMo said: Not sure how you would be allowed to do any work yourself, as the work has to be done by MSC contractor to get the grant. I guess it's all about how the contractor sees it. I have run the flow and return pipes (28mm), put in the ufh pipework, done the concrete base for the unit, pulled in a collection of cables and a few other bits. None of those quoting have said anything - while rubbing their hands with glee at less work for them to pay for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 17 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said: I guess it's all about how the contractor sees it A bit like electricians, not all will allow you to do first fix but some will. 🤷♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 2 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said: "anything can happen in the next half hour." Not quite half an hour https://www.edie.net/reports-ministers-threatened-to-resign-over-proposed-weakening-of-heat-pump-ambitions/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 15 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Not quite half an hour Obviously you are not observing this meltdown at the speed of light that is happening among our elected representatives - perhaps it has not reached Cornwall yet, I mean it is light years from the center of power after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 10 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said: Obviously you are not observing this meltdown at the speed of light that is happening among our elected representatives If it is in tomorrows Daily Mail then we will hear about it. Or Reform's manifesto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 3 hours ago, SteamyTea said: Not quite half an hour https://www.edie.net/reports-ministers-threatened-to-resign-over-proposed-weakening-of-heat-pump-ambitions/ Easy to identify those on the grant harvesting gravy train. Alledgedly................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 4 hours ago, sharpener said: Here's a list of those claiming an interest. Of those I think only Michael Fabricant is a chartered engineer, though there was one on the opposition benches as well at one point. Not sure you could say he was a serious engineer, Therese Coffey is not a serious anything but still makes the list. Jesus, i shouldnt have looked at that link. There is no hope is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfiejim Posted March 9 Author Share Posted March 9 On 03/03/2024 at 09:28, JamesPa said: Not sure its actually plumbers. Most regular plumbers are excluded because of the MCS overhead. I have a suspicion based on the installers I have interviewed that its, in large measure, special purpose organisations (you might call them 'grant harvesters') who have sprung up. Flashy salesmen, special offers if you sign today, 'Ill just phone my manager about that request for a bit off' etc, you know the drill. They then employ rookie plumbers to do the actual install, which is another reason why they will rip out as much of the existing installation as possible, so that the plumber doesn't have to think too much, which of course also increases the size of the job. These guys can only survive because of MCS and the grant. There are notable exceptions however, including Octopus but also many smaller organisations who are doing a good job of designing and installing effective and efficient systems. It wouldn't be fair to tar the whole industry with the same brush. This is all perfectly correct. It's the MCS guys that are on their own gold rush. The everyday plumbers are not to blame. Those who have invested in the training and certification are cashing in, which is fair but there is a point when a fair return trips into a rip off. It's Tax payer money after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk1_man Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 I am finding that the MCS route to market is a complete rip off, more akin to ambulance chasers. I am doing a self build with the intention of installing a heat pump at some stage so all main flow and returns are 28mm copper to tank and underfloor manifolds. The mains cable and 2 wire control cable is already run, I have an existing 250l twin coil cylinder that they have confirmed is suitable for heat pump so they have agreed not to swap etc. They have said that my install should be really simple and take no longer than a day possibly two. The quote is £13,250 of which I can claim £7,500 back. This is for a 12kw Vaillant which retails around £5700 and I am sure they pay much less. The only additional materials is a few valves, possibly antifreeze valves and a couple of meters of copper, interface, rubber feet etc. Say that amounts to an additional £1000 that would take a total of £6700 in goods. How on earth do they justify £6.5k for possibly two days work ! All of the companies appear to be the same. I obtained a few quotes last year before government increased grant to £7.5k, the difference I had to pay hasn't changed, it appears companies are able to just pocket an additional £2.5k in their pockets. How on earth does the government expect people to migrate from gas boilers to heat pumps with this closed shop racket going on ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 33 minutes ago, mk1_man said: How on earth does the government expect people to migrate from gas boilers to heat pumps with this closed shop racket going on ! You do wonder, on the up side this morning we had a visit from our 4th potential installer of our system and he had actually done his homework, knew it was a passive class house (we may get it certified / may not) and took me through a couple of issues they had with bits of it in an intelligent and switched on way, explained the various control regimes I could have - Homely, direct, Wunda and a Vaillant system direct to their proposed ASHP which was the 3.5kW unit - the size I think we need. I also already sort of know what I want everywhere and he was happy to take me through how they might be able to accommodate, and what I might want to look at for balance - now all I need is the quote! I will let you know how that goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk1_man Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 Sounds promising. At the moment my thoughts are new Samsung R290 pump controlled via homely or Vaillant unit on native control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 32 minutes ago, mk1_man said: Sounds promising. At the moment my thoughts are new Samsung R290 pump controlled via homely or Vaillant unit on native control. Done plenty of experimentation with my house, tried Weather compensation etc.Find the cheapest to run by far is E7 tariff, run heat pump at 35 degs starting at around midnight then run until the thermostat says stop. The heating then stay off until the next start time of around midnight. 1 hour ago, mk1_man said: for a 12kw Vaillant Why that big on a new build? Are you sure you need that big, my 6kW is huge, and it only puts out 6kW max, the Vaillant puts out way more than 12kW when you read the specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk1_man Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 1 hour ago, JohnMo said: Done plenty of experimentation with my house, tried Weather compensation etc.Find the cheapest to run by far is E7 tariff, run heat pump at 35 degs starting at around midnight then run until the thermostat says stop. The heating then stay off until the next start time of around midnight. Why that big on a new build? Are you sure you need that big, my 6kW is huge, and it only puts out 6kW max, the Vaillant puts out way more than 12kW when you read the specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk1_man Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 (edited) Hi, size of the heat pump is a frustration. I have had two companies that both say I need a 12kw heat pump as heat loss is between 10 & 12kw I keep challenging them by saying current modulation on gas boiler doesn't support that. Our boiler generally heats underfloor slab from 04:00 to around 08:00 and then stays off for most of the day. I am sure with a heat pump if running continuously it would just need to trickle the heat in. Even if I do me own heat pump calcs the companies don't budge, the only route is to purchase unit myself and if I went that route its either the 8kw new Samsung R290 or the Vaillant 7Kw I have 150m2 underfloor flooring in 11 loops. Plan is to ditch all the current actuators and the mixer valve & pump and run as open loop with no buffer. Any suggestions on best option for doing calcs myself. I have looked at heat punk and also Heat Engineer so far. Edited March 13 by mk1_man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 5 minutes ago, mk1_man said: Any suggestions on best option for doing calcs myself. Have you used / tried the JSHarris spreadsheet? You can find it here along with some details for using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 3 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said: now all I need is the quote! I will let you know how that goes. Baited breath and all that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpener Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 5 hours ago, mk1_man said: They have said that my install should be really simple and take no longer than a day possibly two. The quote is £13,250 of which I can claim £7,500 back. This is for a 12kw Vaillant which retails around £5700 and I am sure they pay much less. Ambitious if they think it can be fitted in a day. 1 hour ago, mk1_man said: I have 150m2 underfloor flooring in 11 loops. Plan is to ditch all the current actuators and the mixer valve & pump and run as open loop with no buffer. Any suggestions on best option for doing calcs myself. I have looked at heat punk and also Heat Engineer so far. Sounds well over-sized for a 150m2 new build. Have used Heatpunk, good agreement with my installer's heat loss survey. There are a few bugs, mainly to do with calling up correct rad types - which won't bother you. Cross check the result here, it suggests you are in the 3 - 6 kW range, not 12! Unfortunately we are over a barrel bc Vaillant will only provide extended warranty if fitted by their approved installers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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