Bat surveys - impossible to beat?

[Raine]

I've researched and concluded that beating bat surveys is impossible. What do you guys think?

 

Even the prolific, and very savvy, local high-end housebuilder in my area can't do it. In one of their recent bat surveys, the surveyor saw a single Common Pipistrelle (of which there are 2.5m in UK apparently, so not exactly endangered!) popping in to a gap under a roof tile for half an hour on a summer evening, and then leaving.  On that basis, the developer had to do the whole supervised hand demolition thing, and install bat boxes on the new house.

 

If the council requests a Preliminary Roost Assessment (PRA), you may as well just factor-in at least a couple of £k to your build budget, and a lot of delay to your schedule, and get on with it:

 

• PRA survey & report (maybe £400?)
• If you have even a single thumb-sized gap under a roof tile, or a bit of mortar missing in a roof / chimney mortar bed, they will identify that as a potential roost location, and require a summer dawn + dusk emergence survey (with 3 or 4 surveyors watching the house for 2 or 3 hours dawn & dusk) & report (maybe £1000??)
• If the emergence surveyors see even a single bat popping in for even a couple of minutes, that's a strike, and you have to do the full supervised hand demolition and bat boxes.

 

I can't see how anyone can mitigate against those factors.  😞
 

[JohnMo]

That's life I am afraid. Just have to factor the cost into the overall costs 

[Susie]

We had do have a PRA the guy came and we met him on the drive and he started to walk towards one of our barns, we stopped and said it’s not that one it’s this one.  He took one look at it and said oh they won’t like that too hot in summer with all that tin roof and too cold in winter with wood sides and lots of missing bits. 
Unfortunately it still cost us a bit for the report that he continued to complete and he found evidence of a wren and a robin nesting. So we were imposed a time span out of bird nesting season when it can be demolished. 

We have a very large barn covered in ivy that lots of birds nest in. During the baby bird season it gets quite loud.  Also the male wren makes multiple nests for the female to choose from so who knows if it was ever lived in, he didn’t climb up or look around much. 
 

 

[joe90]

21 minutes ago, Raine said:

I've researched and concluded that beating bat surveys is impossible. What do you guys think?

Yup, been there done that, put my build back 18 months and cost money, we were surrounded by woods that was full of them!!! Council even tried to make me put bat boxes IN the house despite the ecology expert agreeing that building bat boxes in my workshop was sufficient for the site, luckily I went to appeal (fir the planning permission) and they over ruled the council on that point.

[Post and beam]

Also been there done that. And the 2 small old barns currently on the plot also have tin roofs so we got the same response as above, Luckily.

But i still have to install a couple of Bat box's and a couple of bird box's. I dont have an issue with these just the fee's for the survey.

[joe90]

Ha, mine was a tin roof but the buggers still lived there 🤷‍♂️

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, Raine said:

I've researched and concluded that beating bat surveys is impossible. What do you guys think?

....

 

It's not impossible. Its very difficult, but possible. Let me describe my experience of successful local practice.

 

Full disclosure: I had to spend a lot of money on ecology, and then watch neighbours use my survey as their own in a PP application.  The LPA response to the neighbour's PP application was that he should put up a notice using the RAMS guidance - cost £100 tops.

 

A few years before PP is applied for you take steps to kill any and all wildlife. The steps taken locally are

• encourage people to shoot on your land
• ignore reports of dead buzzards or other protected species - especially Heron
• fill ponds with pig slurry
• cut down any trees 
• encourage the local Rat Pack to hunt on your land
• spray your land with toxic chemicals
• make sure that there's as much monoculture on your land as possible
• get the local badgers dug out and harassed to death
• After successful a successful PP application,  apply to as many grant funders as possible to encourage re-wilding.
• Choose your ecologist wisely. Read their reports and draw your own conclusions as to the veracity and accuracy of their surveys. 
• All ecologists are not equally insensitive to a builder's requirements.

I do not condone or suggest that anyone should copy this technique. It's just my way of documenting the duplicity of some members of my local community.

One ecologist said to me that self-builders aren't the problem. Its the 'Big Boys' - to use his phrase - that are the problem.

He made this quite perceptive point to me directly -

 

"No matter what you kill on your build - it won't make much difference : it's just one house"

I doubt that he would have made that statement in public.

 

My naivety in this sector - and openness - cost me about £6000 and about a 9 month delay. That admission does not, in my view, detract from the accuracy of the statements above.

 

In anticipation of your interest in a RAMS statement - here's a reading list

[SteamyTea]

@ToughButterCup

 

Told you to poison the pond before you started.

 

Best survey is kerosene and matches.

 

 

 

 

 

[nod]

It’s money for old rope We paid £800 for a guy to walk around the field and spend 20 minute telling us why the location was an unsuitable habitat 

After he had gone The neighbor told me they have bats roosting in there garage and under the hanging tiles 

[scottishjohn]

thtas the one thing I did  not need --no roof on anything 

but they got me with archaeology  surevey --to make sure no important remmnants of the previous quarrying  history 

just a bloody joke 

even wantedto be there when we dug hole for treatment system 

[nod]

2 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

thtas the one thing I did  not need --no roof on anything 

but they got me with archaeology  surevey --to make sure no important remmnants of the previous quarrying  history 

just a bloody joke 

even wantedto be there when we dug hole for treatment system 

Ours was an empty field Still wanted a bar survey 

[saveasteading]

I have no argument with respecting nature.

Ditto archaeology .

 

I do object to blanket requirements for all possible surveys, and have argued against them when it is excessive, usually successfully. But that takes time and sometimes an expert.

But once not  (before commencing this project, search the whole development estate for and remove any unexplored German bombs). That site was dropped and hasn't been developed as nobody wants to be the first,and the site owner must be too mean or poor.

 

The land price should reflect the risks, costs and constraints attached to these issues.

 

[Blooda]

We didn't have a problem with Archaeology or Nature, only CO₂

 

The desktop surveys showed an historic landfill near to our property, essentially the council think they filled in an ash pit in the 50's with stuff and they don't know where. So on the Historic Landfill GiS layer it is just a round circle. 

This lead to bore holes and gas test.  Found no physical evidence but we had a high enough percentage of CO₂  to warrant the installation of a full CO₂ Barrier membrane.   

 

[Just in case that pesky, heavier than air gas, fills up the vented void underneath the block and beam, penetrates the block and beam, though the insulation, though the Polythene, though the Screed, through the tile adhesive and finally the tiles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scottishjohn]

1 hour ago, nod said:

Ours was an empty field Still wanted a bar survey 

Iwould have argued that and stood my ground 

green field has no roots for bats and if not cutting any trees down --thats nonsnese

they just add bat surveys to every application 

they did that on mine and when i pointed out there was nowhere for bats to roost --as in no roof --they with drew the need 

[scottishjohn]

11 minutes ago, Blooda said:

We didn't have a problem with Archaeology or Nature, only CO₂

 

The desktop surveys showed an historic landfill near to our property, essentially the council think they filled in an ash pit in the 50's with stuff and they don't know where. So on the Historic Landfill GiS layer it is just a round circle. 

This lead to bore holes and gas test.  Found no physical evidence but we had a high enough percentage of CO₂  to warrant the installation of a full CO₂ Barrier membrane.   

 

[Just in case that pesky, heavier than air gas, fills up the vented void underneath the block and beam, penetrates the block and beam, though the insulation, though the Polythene, though the Screed, through the tile adhesive and finally the tiles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

our problem was there was quarrying on site for over 250years and lots of buildinngs  and smithys etc

Ithink the driving poinmt was that the county archeologist wantedphotographic evidence of the old building  etc 

ithink they made a mistkae inthe past not ,isting it

maybe cos it was so vergrown they could not see it LOL

Edited February 27 by scottishjohn

[saveasteading]

8 minutes ago, Blooda said:

Just in case that pesky, heavier than air gas

Might have been intersting to ask what the perceived risk is.

Good news that there was no methane or CO. But a gas membrane isn't  expensive and its an assett.

[scottishjohn]

3 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Might have been intersting to ask what the perceived risk is.

Good news that there was no methane or CO. But a gas membrane isn't  expensive and its an assett.

strabgly enough there was no rquirement for a radon barrier under my new floor --suprising as its built on solid granite  and obsidion

so just shows they never get it right 

Edited February 27 by scottishjohn

[scottishjohn]

there was nothing anywhere when we bought it --but a year on we suddenly had a bees nest --not a problem local bee keeper came and got the queen and the swarm 

I mean where do you stop if your house is in the country? 

 

,badger sets --fox dens toad and newt migation tracks across to a water source you may have on the site 

worlds gone mad

 

 next thign is you cannot dig a hole in the ground because of worms

robins always follow my digger around 

Edited February 27 by scottishjohn

[nod]

33 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

Iwould have argued that and stood my ground 

green field has no roots for bats and if not cutting any trees down --thats nonsnese

they just add bat surveys to every application 

they did that on mine and when i pointed out there was nowhere for bats to roost --as in no roof --they with drew the need 

We did 

 

planners tick list 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, nod said:

planners tick list 

That's fair enough. As long as they accept sensible responses

eg bats don't live in a green field might seem sarcy. 

But: "we can confirm that there are no trees, buildings or any other potential roosts,  hence no need for a survey" gets a tick. Or should as long as it's true.

 

[nod]

7 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

That's fair enough. As long as they accept sensible responses

eg bats don't live in a green field might seem sarcy. 

But: "we can confirm that there are no trees, buildings or any other potential roosts,  hence no need for a survey" gets a tick. Or should as long as it's true.

 

They are so unreasonable 

We had to have a contaminated land survey on our previous build 

One had been done six years before the laid to lawn One year out of date 

[Canski]

9 hours ago, Raine said:

I

 

If the council requests a Preliminary Roost Assessment (PRA), you may as well just factor-in at least a couple of £k to your build budget, and a lot of delay to your schedule, and get on with it:

A couple of £k ? Try £8k plus bat boxes plus temporary bat boxes plus a years delay costs ( This was when inflation was at 10 %) Materials for my build are roughly £500 k so before could have been £454 k oh and plus the rip off final bat boxes. Total cost for all bat boxes £520

9 hours ago, Raine said:

• PRA survey & report (maybe £400?)
• If you have even a single thumb-sized gap under a roof tile, or a bit of mortar missing in a roof / chimney mortar bed, they will identify that as a potential roost location, and require a summer dawn + dusk emergence survey (with 3 or 4 surveyors watching the house for 2 or 3 hours dawn & dusk) & report (maybe £1000??)
• If the emergence surveyors see even a single bat popping in for even a couple of minutes, that's a strike, and you have to do the full supervised hand demolition and bat boxes.

 

PRA and survey report £650 + VAT, 4 dusk surveys @ £800 + VAT, Bat Licence £500, extended bat license as the starlings had moved in and caused another delay £101. It's not over yet !! I still need to get it signed off on completion.

[Raine]

 

So the only thing I can really do is choose my bat surveyor very carefully.

 

Anyone got any experience / tips in greasing the wheels?  That is not really my wheelhouse so I could do with some tips.  DM me please!!!

 

What a ridiculous farce it all is!! 

[joe90]

1 hour ago, Raine said:

What a ridiculous farce it all is!! 

I agree and in my situation I welcomed the surveyor, was positive about what they were doing and convinced them I was positive about protecting the bats 🤣🤣🤣. Get them on side rather than challenging them (even if you don’t believe it).

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, Raine said:

choose my bat surveyor very carefully.

Yes. talk to  them all. Some are sentimental and don't like development. some relish their authority. some like making lots of money. but some are pragmatic and accept that there are other ways to do things / real life.

 

BUT if you've bought a plot with bats on it, then they are your responsibility.