"Barn" in an AONB

[Tom]

Dear All - this is my first post, so please be gentle! We're self-build novices but have some experience building our own extensions and renovating houses etc. What we don't have is any experience of planning law. Can I kick off with a general query?

Right, we've found a good sized chunk of land, essentially agricultural fields, with a pre-existing blockbuilt barn on it. This "barn" is actually more of a bungalow: pitched + tiled roof, electricity, water, bathroom with drainage to cess pit - even double glazed windows. It's pretty much a building stuck after the first-fix stage. Looking at google earth it looks like it's been there for 10+ years. Sounds like someone else has done all the hard work for us... however, it's being marketed as an agricultural barn as according to the agent there is very little chance of getting planning permission to complete it, or permission to live in it. It's also in an AONB.

I'm guessing that as it's being marketed by a large estate agency they'd have planning consultants on tap for advice, so in a way we're resigned to the fact that it's probably a non-starter for us, BUT we just have to explore every option because it would be too good to miss out on.

So, can any one give us any advice? Is this really a non-starter? Could there be a way around the planning restrictions e.g include plans for solar/renewables/passive house etc? I've submitted a "pre-planning" advice request with our council but this can take months apparently and I'm guessing it will probably be computer says no - what we need is lateral thinking!

Any advice very gratefully received

Tom

 

[Crofter]

Welcome to the forum!

Have you looked up the local authority's housing plan? That can give some good guidance on what they will and will not allow.

 

The fallback method for obtaining planning on agricultural land is to go down the agricultural tie route. But this is far from easy, is not quick, not guaranteed, and has significant downsides,

[Guest Alphonsox]

HI and welcome

Do you know whether the barn has any form of planning at the moment ? Is it actually allowed to be there ?

[Gone West]

Hi Tom, welcome to the forum. If it's classed as an agricultural building is it possible to apply for Permitted Development Part Q?

[dogman]

There is an example near to me where planning has been obtained on an old stable block.

The property started as an agricultural field

planning - change use for grazing

then

planning to build a stable block that was substantial

then 

planning for two large barns

then sold

new owners started a small holding-Chickens and sheep

 

Tried to get planning for new house- refused

Tried to get planning for caravan- refused

 

Then managed and i don't know how they got permission to convert stable block to a bungalow as stables were unused and not needed for chickens and sheep

 

Interestingly the whole stable block was an easy conversion as all the window and door openings were in the right place. roof was tiled already and there was water and drainage already installed.

 

Now this took about 7 years but it is possible

 

[jamiehamy]

As Crofter said, read in detail the Local Development plan pertaining to the area. In particular,  look for the parts that imply you can or build or develop it. 

 

Once you've done that,then look for areas of the document that support it being developed. Do a balanced assessment. 

 

Ultimately,  the planners have to assess against their local development plan in the first instance. You should always find sections that will show what's possible and what's not. For example,  renovating or converting Disused buildings....which are in an AONB. You could find that there is no section that relates to the building you are looking at,  in which case it's a grey area and you have to consider what other sections could apply if there was leeway. 

 

In our case we wanted to convert a disused water tank (brownfield site) in a regional park. No area of the LDP actually covered this so we had to look at other sections which suggested the principle was sound but not covered specifically. It was on that basis we submitted an application. Had it been refused there would have been a good case for appeal but planners we on board and realised this because I met them and discussed it. 

[IanR]

4 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

Hi Tom, welcome to the forum. If it's classed as an agricultural building is it possible to apply for Permitted Development Part Q?

 

Unfortunately no Rights to Class Q in an AONB, plus the development that has already happened would stop the PD.

 

What's the planning history on the site? Any enforcement orders?

 

The Estate Agent is unlikely to have done much investigative work themselves unless the vendor has paid them for it. They'll be giving their opinion based on previous experience and what the vendor has told them.

 

It does sound like a non-starter since you would have thought the vendor would have exhausted all options having invested in the barn's development. But he may well have upset the Council by developing without consent.

 

There's likely to be some history on the planning portal where the arguments for and against planning have been played out. May give you a hint at whether there is a way around any Council objections.

[Jeremy Harris]

Hi Tom,

 

We're also in an AONB, and have some experience of gaining PP within one.  There seems to be one key element of information missing here, and that is whether or not the building has been used, albeit unlawfully, as a dwelling in the past, and if so, what has been done about it.  It's not at all uncommon for illicit conversions to take place out in the countryside, sometimes people get caught, sometimes they don't.  If anyone can get away with doing this, and prove they have lived in it without getting caught for a long enough period of time, then they can retrospectively apply for a certificate of lawfulness, that, in effect, retrospectively grants planning permission.

 

Don't trust estate agents to be knowledgeable about planning, my experience is they know next to sod all about it, their expertise is in selling land and houses, not planning law.

 

Your best first step would be to search your local authority planning applications part of their website, looking for all application, perhaps going back a decade or more, for that address.  Some local authorities have a map application that allows easy identification of previous applications, others don't, and the job can be a bit tedious.  Armed with the planning history we'll be much better placed to advise.

 

If there has been a refusal to grant PP for residential use in the past, then I'd say this is a non-starter, as getting permission for residential development within the open countryside, especially where that happens to be an AONB, is near impossible without a very strong argument, one usually relating to the need for an agricultural tie (and even then it's not easy in an AONB).

Edited September 25, 2017 by JSHarris

[Tom]

Wow! Thanks so much all for the responses. Embarrassingly I hadn't thought of looking back in the planning portal - so I'll certainly do that. I'll also see if I can find the development plan.

IanR: it's being sold by a charity who received it in a will, so perhaps their enthusiasm for exploring all planning options aren't as great as a private seller (here's hoping...)

JSHarris: I'm pretty sure it hasn't been lived in, in spite of the double glazing and toilet it looks like it's been used as a machinery store. However, given that the building is already there all we are asking for is permission to live in it - surely there has to be a good chance of this, more so than permission for a whole new building in it's own right?
I'll report back when I have any further info, many thanks once again

Tom

[IanR]

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

However, given that the building is already there all we are asking for is permission to live in it - surely there has to be a good chance of this, more so than permission for a whole new building in it's own right?

 

Nope, more likely there's already (or will be soon) an enforcement order in place to normalise the development without consent, unfortunately.

 

Assuming this was once a lawful Agricultural building (and there's not been and Change of Use granted), the development that has now occurred is stopping it from performing its lawful use. The Council will most likely require it to be returned to its original condition.

[Jeremy Harris]

22 minutes ago, IanR said:

 

Nope, more likely there's already (or will be soon) an enforcement order in place to normalise the development without consent, unfortunately.

 

Assuming this was once a lawful Agricultural building (and there's not been and Change of Use granted), the development that has now occurred is stopping it from performing its lawful use. The Council will most likely require it to be returned to its original condition.

 

 

That's exactly my thinking!  It sounds to me as if the owner, or his/her predecessor, may have tried to pull a fast one by doing a conversion on the QT, got found out and as a consequence the building is now known to the planners. 

 

Alternatively, it may have been used for seasonal workers at some time in the past, perhaps as a wash house and kitchen.  Lots of farms use seasonal workers that they accommodate in huts, caravans etc, and some provide communal kitchen/toilet/washing facilities.

 

Either way, from the estate agents description of it having very little chance of getting residential PP, then I think there is more information lurking as to the planning history of this building.  If there was even the slightest chance that it might get PP, then the estate agent would probably mention that.

[Ferdinand]

@Tom

 

In addition to policies etc, you also need to go into your Local Council office and ask to see the entire Planning File for that site. It is very variable what is online, so you must look at the Planning File.

 

As a second best, put in an FOI request for the entire file, which will probably come as a PDF. But that may have missed out bits by mistake - what you want is to be alone in a room with the file for an hour or two.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Ferdinand

[ToughButterCup]

40 minutes ago, Tom said:

[...]

I'll report back when I have any further info, many thanks once again

Tom

 

My finger-tips are burning. Something isn't right here.

The only way round the problem is to network extensively. It's a hard slog, with potentially the opposite answer to the one you want. Make it your job to  talk to estate agents, planners and people in the local pub(s).

Get hold of all the relevant documentation: probably online. Contact the authors of the reports for the various sections. Listen hard.

[Tom]

I'm guessing something definitely isn't right! The place was purpose built as is - not converted, and has some trees planted right up against one elevation to shield it from a lane nearby. It looks like several opening that could have taken french/bifold doors have been filled with blockwork and one remaining now has a garage door on it: I'm guessing original plan was for residential (on the QT), was found out so building work stopped and just made secure and used as a shed.

 

I can't find any planning applications for the site (going back to 2000). Would enforcement notices be listed anywhere?

 

Scanning through the development plan I can see this:

 

TTV31 - Development in the Countryside

 

The LPAs will protect the special characteristics and role of the countryside. The following provisions will apply to the consideration of development proposals:

 

 

1.        Housing and employment development adjoining or very near to an existing settlement will only be supported where it meets the essential, small scale local development needs of the community and provides a sustainable solution.

2.     Isolated development in the countryside will be avoided and only permitted in exceptional circumstances, such as where it would:

iii.    Secure the re-use of redundant or disused buildings and brownfield sites for an appropriate use.

 

It's certainly a disused building! Clutching at straws...

 

 

[dogman]

The development history  I mentioned is all on line on the council website.  The deciding factor I think was The use of a specialist agricultural planning consultant.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

I've related this tale before, but near us we have a friend who breeds chickens, the rare breeds that are more often seen at shows than pecking around a farmyard.  She's been running this business for at least 15 years that I know of, on a plot of land given to her by her family.  She has a range of pens and chicken coops around the place, plus a mobile home that she lives in.  She keeps having to re-apply for permission to live in the mobile home, as it's in the open countryside and an AONB, and the LA won't grant permanent permission, just permission for five years at a time, IIRC.

 

She's tried to get planning permission to build a small house on the site, on the basis that she needs to be onsite 24/7 in order to care for her chickens, shut them up at night, protect them from foxes etc.  The local authority accept that she has to live on site as a requirement for her agricultural business.  However, they have persistently refused to grant PP for a permanent dwelling, even one with an agricultural tie, because they are hard over on not allowing new development in the open countryside.

 

The situation is beyond ludicrous, as the lady has the support of her neighbours, the parish council etc, and seems to meet the exceptional conditions that allow limited development in the countryside if that development is sustainable and there is a demonstrable occupational need to live adjacent to an agricultural workplace.  Last I heard she was going to appeal over her latest refusal - I'm pretty sure if she'd gained PP by now then I'd have heard about it.  Her planning battle has been going on for well over 10 years now.

Edited September 25, 2017 by JSHarris

[Temp]

Tom - Absolutely essential you find out the planning status of the building. Perhaps ask the owner for a letter of authority allowing the planners to speak to you. If you really like the place then might even be worth paying the planners a "pre-application consultation fee" if they insist on one.

 

Long shot but.. _If_ you could prove that the building had been used as a dwelling for >10 years then it _might_ be possible to get planning permission on the grounds that permission cannot now be refused. This is because enforcement action has to be initiated within 10 years in cases that would normally need planning permission for "change of use". My guess is that the owner has already investigated, perhaps received a letter ages ago or it's been empty.

 

Beware that more than one file may exist for a property. For example for my site there were two with different files with titles such as "land north of..." and land south of..". Try using the map search facility to find all applications within a few 100 yards. Not all old files are on the system though.

 

In my case only formal planning documents were online. The planner had a paper file full of letters between him and the previous owner dated prior to him submitting an application. Ten years when we did ours I was able to book a time to go and see this file. The receptionist had to recover it from the planning officer. Not sure if this is still possible.

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Temp

[Tom]

JS - that doesn't bode well for my situation!

Temp - definitely hasn't been inhabited, however, if it has been used as a barn/storage/shed for 10+ years can permission to use it as such now be refused? And... if it then has legal status as a barn, can I apply for conversion to residential?

I'll speak to the planning office about the current planning status...

[IanR]

10 minutes ago, Tom said:

Temp - definitely hasn't been inhabited, however, if it has been used as a barn/storage/shed for 10+ years can permission to use it as such now be refused?

 

To get a Certificate of Lawful Existing Use you need to demonstrate a breach that has existed for more than 4 years and is continuing. If that use is to be "Agricultural" then generally the LPA will also require demonstration of a business need. ie. a profitable business that requires a barn to function.

 

In truth if there was a functioning agricultural business the building may already have a lawful agricultural use through PD if the building fits within the caveats that are allowed.

 

If a lawful Agricultural use can be proved/achieved then there would be a slim chance of a Change of Use to Residential. Lots of hurdles to jump though.

 

But, as I mentioned before the development that has already occurred, does't imply to me an Agricultural use. I'm thinking specifically of double glazing and a connected "cesspit". This sounds unlawful to me (unless you can find the relevant permission). An unlawful use can not be used to argue for a Change of Use.

[Temp]

I think converting an agri building to residential use is permitted development (part Q). Not sure about in an AONB though.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Temp

[IanR]

...but not in an AONB

[Jeremy Harris]

22 minutes ago, IanR said:

...but not in an AONB

 

Spot on again. 

 

My neighbour over the road bought what was a trout farm (so the land was designated for light commercial use, can't recall the category), and has tried to get change of use for the old trout hatching/rearing ponds in what is now really a meadow in his back garden for years.  Eventually he managed to get change of use to agricultural, but that's it.  Now it is designated as agricultural land they are unlikely to allow it to be changed back to even light commercial use; they will not contemplate any other change of use. 

 

It caused a stir locally, as when he bought the place it was a viable trout farm (doing quite well) and it was clear from the start that he never wanted to run it as a business, he only wanted the house and large area of land that the trout ponds covered.  Pretty much every man and his dog guessed that he bought the place with the plan of getting residential PP for the land covered by the trout ponds, as one of the first things he tried was to get a new entrance in off an adjacent lane (something there was no need for, as there's a perfectly good access lane alongside his property to the trout farm).  That was repeatedly refused, and I strongly suspect that the AONB guessed exactly what his plan was, and now the planners are well and truly alerted to the potential issue.   The above process went on over about 7 or 8 years.

 

I think the final thing that has stopped him from trying to go down the housing development route were the floods over the Christmas 2013 period.  That inundated the whole of the trout farm area under a couple of feet of water, flooded his basement and the lane outside our new build.  As a consequence the flood risk has now been elevated and that has added to the planning challenge.  I believe he's now given up on getting PP to develop the land for housing, and has settled for having it as agricultural land, with the view that it can be used as a paddock for ponies, and be of greater value that way (pony paddocks on flat land seem to attract a premium over plain agricultural land around here).

 

As a general rule. an AONB is pretty close to a National Park in terms of planning restrictions, the main difference being that an AONB doesn't have delegated planning powers, whereas a National Park does, I believe.  To all intents and purposes though, an AONB may as well be a National Park.  We had to go through much the same in terms of having the design, materials etc all separately  approved, pretty much as we would have had to if building in a National Park.

Edited September 26, 2017 by JSHarris

[Tom]

Hello all, just a quick update - er, well no update really. I spoke informally to a planning consultant who really mirrored much of what was being said above and he also gave me a contact in the local planning office, who I contacted and several months down the line I still haven't had a response! Anyway, it was never meant to be it seems. For someone with deeper pockets this would have been something to buy and sit on for a while and play the system, but not me. HOWEVER, every cloud etc, we've had an offer accepted on land and barns - with the hope of getting Part Q . Still very early days and will pull out if Part Q is looking unlikely. Will start another thread....