Wall mounted basic ASHP for workshop

[billt]

I installed the 12,000 btu version recently and have found it to be acceptably quiet. It depends on the fan speed, but on low fan it is very quiet and even on full it's not objectionable. The outdoor unit is pretty quiet as well, only wide band fan noise, compressor isn't audible.

 

The only problem was that it cost a fortune in extras to make a tidy installation and tools to flush and vacuum properly.

[Roger440]

51 minutes ago, billt said:

I installed the 12,000 btu version recently and have found it to be acceptably quiet. It depends on the fan speed, but on low fan it is very quiet and even on full it's not objectionable. The outdoor unit is pretty quiet as well, only wide band fan noise, compressor isn't audible.

 

The only problem was that it cost a fortune in extras to make a tidy installation and tools to flush and vacuum properly.

 

Can you say roughly how much and what they were?

 

[S2D2]

4 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Can I ask - How noisy is the indoor unit?

This is a tricky one as I have it tucked out the way slightly rather than very near any seating. There are four fan speeds, I run it on three (four being highest) almost all of the time. I turn it down to two if watching TV in the room quietly. One is very quiet but I've never had the need to use it. None of them are silent but it's a consistent airflow noise that settles into the background. My dehumidifier is much, much noisier. I'm also running with a higher fan speed than is necessary for the room as I'm trying to heat the whole house with it.

[Gus Potter]

Suggestion:

 

Imagine you are the installer.. done the training courses etc.

 

The unit comes in a box and in that box tends to be an install template or a diagram as to how you fix it to the wall. Now you follow the diagram but you don't have time to actually think about how vibration / sound waves are transferred to the wall. Also, you probably won't have been taught about how sound can reverberate off things, or say a fence and excite vibration in say a soil pipe or transfer to a duct.

 

If you think about a wind instrument.. say a saxophone, the reed which is pretty small converts your breath into a change in air pressure that gets amplified by the rest of the instrument. Now think about how a fan unit could be missing some flexible mounting washers, you have ducting that may be amplifying the sound.. sometimes it needs a bit of thought. In some cases it could be that you just need a bit of galve band to stop the vibration growth that we hear..  we call this damping.

 

As SE's when we design floors we clearly don't want them to fall down. But we also want them not to get "excited by vibration" as this can be dangerous but also it make folk unhappy when they are walking over or in them. Often we just need to add a bit more weight.. same applies to ventilation ducts.

 

I would look at the simple stupid first and see if you have covered all of that before blaming the unit. At the then of the day if the unit is faulty the manufacturer is just going to ask the same questions as I am.

 

 

 

 

 

[markocosic]

15 hours ago, Roger440 said:

Not any more. Got to provide info up front.

 

Interesting!

 

I wonder what prompted that change. 

[markocosic]

11 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

Can you say roughly how much and what they were?

 

Vacuum pump and gauges/hoses £100

Cutter and eccentric flaring tool £50

F-Gas leak detector £60

Nylog blue £20

Lineset £100

Feet or wall mount £50

 

Call it £400

 

The rest should be pretty standard DIY fare

[markocosic]

9 hours ago, S2D2 said:

I'm also running with a higher fan speed than is necessary for the room as I'm trying to heat the whole house with it.

 

This.

 

The unit in the cabin mounted in the hall near the middle of the building; centred on an 8*6m space with cathedral ceiling and open mezzanine above; with another 4*6m of ceilinged rooms behind it; is not objectionable.

 

The unit in a Cambridge dining room with ultra low ceilings is objectionable in the dining room when trying to heat the whole house.

 

In a workshop type space you wouldn't give a monkeys if it were far away.

 

I am tempted to move the Cambridge unit to granddad's house next year and put it...under his desk...blowing on his feet...and attempting to heat the main living space this way with a 2kW hotspot where his feet without blood circulation spend most of their time. I think it would actually be comfortable in addition to muffling the sound. If the workshop had a similar workbench area I could be tempted to put it under there for much the same reason; and hope that you end up with a warmer stripe of floor where the air crosses it.

 

Ads a curtain and it would make a cracking paint curing cupboard too!

[Beelbeebub]

2 hours ago, markocosic said:

 

Interesting!

 

I wonder what prompted that change. 

Probably a letter from the regulators.

 

 

[HughF]

I’ll take some dB measurements of my indoor unit later for you all…

 

about to install another one, they’re great bits of kit.

[andyj007]

have on of these in my 20m x 10m garage . works a treat 

self fitted in less than 3 hours.. super effective , heat in winter,  air con in summer and dehumidifies at same time. 

 

 

https://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/p/eiq-9wminv/electriq-eiq9wminv-air-conditioner?refsource=apadwords&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_id=18004559423&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwYiXqpmygwMVLSzUAR2EMAyGEAQYASABEgKrDfD_BwE

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by andyj007

[TonyT]

Would prefer to call them A2A than ASHP But agree they are a game changer.

 

[Jenki]

18 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Can I ask - How noisy is the indoor unit?

We have them fitted in the cabins and one in the static, they are quieter than a fan heater, the outdoor unit is slightly quieter than our ASHP.

The ones in the cabins are Electriq? From appliances direct and is quite. no complaints from over a hundred paying customers.

[HughF]

I find it quite noisy when on full fan , and my outdoor unit has a noisy rattle when it’s on full heating.

[Roger440]

9 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

Probably a letter from the regulators.

 

 

 

Very likely id say.

 

In the automotive sector, they are ramping up enforcement in a big way after pretty much none for decades.

[markocosic]

22 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

Probably a letter from the regulators.

 

 

 

It's not against the law to trade in FGas products.

 

Illegal to install them without a one-off noddy ticket to say that you understand they can be flammable/explosive/harmful if released.

 

Not illegal to sell or to buy them though.

 

I suspect the support hassles of dealing with an uptick in DIY installations myself. It'll be interesting to see if that similarly affects the propane units that are slightly more difficult to fit at the moment. (no readily available low cost leak checking tools able to detect trace leaks)

[Beelbeebub]

4 hours ago, markocosic said:

 

It's not against the law to trade in FGas products.

 

Illegal to install them without a one-off noddy ticket to say that you understand they can be flammable/explosive/harmful if released.

 

Not illegal to sell or to buy them though.

 

I suspect the support hassles of dealing with an uptick in DIY installations myself. It'll be interesting to see if that similarly affects the propane units that are slightly more difficult to fit at the moment. (no readily available low cost leak checking tools able to detect trace leaks)

It"s illegal to sell to someone without an f-gas ticket. 

 

(from Gov website) 

 

You can only sell F gas to customers that:

• hold relevant certificates and qualifications
• employ people that hold the relevant certificates and qualifications

If you sell F gas to a customer who will install, service, maintain or repair equipment containing F gas (or uses F gas to function), you must check that the customer holds individual qualifications or employs people holding a qualification.

If they’re doing this work on behalf of someone else, you must check that the customer has relevant company certificates.

You must keep records of:

• the customer’s certificate number
• quantities of F gases they buy

You must keep these records for at least 5 years and show them to your regulator when asked.

A person without qualifications may collect, transport or deliver F gases.

 

.... 

 

 

Get a letter from end users of F gas equipment

If you sell stationary refrigeration, air conditioning, heat pump and fire protection systems, you must get a letter from the end user to confirm the details of the qualified technicians they are using to:

• install
• service
• repair
• decommission

[Beelbeebub]

The only time you don't need evidence of registration is for the person transporting the item (so parcel force etc) or if the item is sealed (eg monoblock). 

 

Saturn Sales were pretty clearly breaching the regulations if they were only requiring the details "for registering the warranty". I guess someone eventually had a quiet word. 

 

 

[markocosic]

On 29/12/2023 at 16:07, Beelbeebub said:

The only time you don't need evidence of registration is for the person transporting the item (so parcel force etc) or if the item is sealed (eg monoblock). 

 

You need evidence for gases.

 

You don't need evidence for equipment though. You need a statement from the end customer regarding who they intend to use to install it. That's not evidence. 😉

 

 

On 29/12/2023 at 16:07, Beelbeebub said:

Saturn Sales were pretty clearly breaching the regulations if they were only requiring the details "for registering the warranty". I guess someone eventually had a quiet word. 

 

Potentially.

 

Do you think they require *evidence* of who is installing the equipment (above and beyond the regulations) or a *statement* from the customer though (which is all the regulations require; subject to unforeseen changes; not independently verifiable etc)

 

 

The regs don't prohibit the same of this kit. They just ask the end user to write you a letter. Which you're not obligated to check and not can you practically enforce before shipping.

 

 

The illegal part was and still remains installing fgas splits without the fgas ticket.

 

Which says nothing of your suitability for installing such equipment. (understanding of vacuum levels/times, pressure tests, flare making/brazing, leak checking etc)

 

Hence being able to buy the same thing in B&Q overseas.

 

 

I'm not instructing I've to change their mind after writing the letter with an installer on it but one can see how the kit can still be purchased.

 

"Medicine for goat" as Tom Hanks would say.

Edited December 31, 2023 by markocosic
Tom hanks comment

[Beelbeebub]

1 minute ago, markocosic said:

 

You need evidence for gases.

 

You don't need evidence for equipment though. You need a statement from the end customer regarding who they intend to use to install it. That's not evidence. 😉

 

 

 

Potentially.

 

Do you think they require *evidence* of who is installing the equipment (above and beyond the regulations) or a *statement* from the customer though (which is all the regulations require; subject to unforeseen changes; not independently verifiable etc)

 

 

The regs don't prohibit the same of this kit. They just ask the end user to write you a letter. Which you're not obligated to check and not can you practically enforce before shipping.

 

 

The illegal part was and still remains installing fgas splits without the fgas ticket.

 

Which says nothing of your suitability for installing such equipment. (understanding of vacuum levels/times, pressure tests, flare making/brazing, leak checking etc)

 

Hence being able to buy the same thing in B&Q overseas.

 

 

I'm not instructing I've to change their mind after writing the letter with an installer on it but one can see how the kit can still be purchased.

The letter needs the details of the registered installer or the seller is breaching the regs. 

 

Granted the buyer could lie and put down some random installer's details. 

 

At the end of the day, the regs are there to try to ensure proper handling of f-gases. If you look at the us where there seems to be less caution there seem to be some bad practices. Eg purging by venting. Given f-gasses can gave very high co2 equivilent that could be counterproductive. 

 

Until we get f-gases with very low gwp and no flammability or toxicity issues we're going to need some sort of installer regulation. If such gasses arrive then we should absolutely be selling these units for sny numpty to try to install. 

[Roger440]

4 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

The letter needs the details of the registered installer or the seller is breaching the regs. 

 

Granted the buyer could lie and put down some random installer's details. 

 

At the end of the day, the regs are there to try to ensure proper handling of f-gases. If you look at the us where there seems to be less caution there seem to be some bad practices. Eg purging by venting. Given f-gasses can gave very high co2 equivilent that could be counterproductive. 

 

Until we get f-gases with very low gwp and no flammability or toxicity issues we're going to need some sort of installer regulation. If such gasses arrive then we should absolutely be selling these units for sny numpty to try to install. 

 

I assume you mrean we "sdhouldnt" be selling them to numptys?

 

Problem is, installing myself is potentially affordable. Paying to have it done (borderline impossible here anyway) means its not affordable. So continue with what i have. Which is worse?

 

Not that it changes the law. 

 

Its clear that by getting the customer to nominate an installer is sufficent to keep the regulator off their back. They all appear to be doing much the same.

[Beelbeebub]

33 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

I assume you mrean we "sdhouldnt" be selling them to numptys?

 

Problem is, installing myself is potentially affordable. Paying to have it done (borderline impossible here anyway) means its not affordable. So continue with what i have. Which is worse?

 

Not that it changes the law. 

 

Its clear that by getting the customer to nominate an installer is sufficent to keep the regulator off their back. They all appear to be doing much the same.

No I mean we *should* be selling them at B&q for anyone to have a go with *if* we can get redridgerant that is low GWP (like single digit), no-toxic and non-flammable. 

 

At that point there isn't a down side to people cocking up and letting the gas out. If it wasn't for the flammability thing r290 would be near perfect. Ammonia is great aper from the material compatability and the slight issue of it being toxic (though also very easy to detect) and mildly flammable. 

 

CO2 has too high pressures and not great performance. 

 

Maybe a super small monoblock (say 2.5kw) and fancoil (no DHW), so the only thing the installer has to deal with is 15mm push fit pipe would be a possibility. 

 

I totally get the installation cost issue. But if someone. dumps the 800g charge from an r32 minisplit into the air because they opened the wrong valve that's about 10% of a person's co2 emissions on one hit. If it's an r410a unit it's more like 80%.

[markocosic]

7 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

Granted the buyer could lie and put down some random installer's details. 

 

Exactly.

 

Not illegal to sell to somebody who doesn't hold an fgas ticket. 😉

 

 

7 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

Until we get f-gases with very low gwp and no flammability or toxicity issues we're going to need some sort of installer regulation.

 

You won't.

 

Propane is the low GWP / non toxic option. It's explosive in the right mixture though. (if you try hard enough - though the EU is sensibly about to up the limits from 150 grams to 900 grams based on experience / calcs)

 

F-Gases (the lot of them) are non toxic / not explosive. They're ALL high GWP though. (in one way or another - either directly or through intermediate breakdown products)

 

 

I can't get too excited about blowing people up whilst we're still piping methane into houses and relying on humans not to leave the valve open without the flame being lit.

 

I can't get too excited about dropping half a kilo of R32 by accident whilst you can still buy a plane ticket to Magaluf on purpose either. The potential benefits outweigh the risks.

 

 

What you DON'T do is allow A N Other to buy the gas itself. If you fudge up you need to call a pro to check it all. No constantly topping up leaking splits.

 

Not that the so called pros are any better. You can't get thicker than a kwik fit fitter yet they're still allowed to hose R134a into shagged old cars without so much as a sniff test.

 

 

3 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

Maybe a super small monoblock (say 2.5kw) and fancoil (no DHW), so the only thing the installer has to deal with is 15mm push fit pipe would be a possibility. 

 

A reality.

 

https://www.gradientcomfort.com/

 

You take a performance hit and a cost hit though.

[Roger440]

3 hours ago, markocosic said:

 

I can't get too excited about blowing people up whilst we're still piping methane into houses and relying on humans not to leave the valve open without the flame being lit.

 

I can't get too excited about dropping half a kilo of R32 by accident whilst you can still buy a plane ticket to Magaluf on purpose either. The potential benefits outweigh the risks.

 

 

What you DON'T do is allow A N Other to buy the gas itself. If you fudge up you need to call a pro to check it all. No constantly topping up leaking splits.

 

Not that the so called pros are any better. You can't get thicker than a kwik fit fitter yet they're still allowed to hose R134a into shagged old cars without so much as a sniff test.

 

 

 

 

Exactly. 

 

Because a small risk exsists, lets stop it, price into oblivion, then wonder why progress is so slow.

 

Do kwik fit still do the "we will do it again" if it all leaks away?

 

I think the automotive trade and what goes on would be an eye opener for some on here. There are millions of cars running around pissing out refrigerant every day. And people keep topping them up. And when work needs doing and the AC is in the way of something, what do people think really happens?

 

[markocosic]

They're unions.

 

The regs on (small, low risk, domestic) fixed installations are sweet fanny adams to do about the environment and everything to do with preventing others from intruding on their cushty little industry.

 

DuPont/Chemours plus the unions boys and girls against progress. They're also fighting to prevent R290 units the same way that they fought to keep fridges using HFCs. (fortunately they're all HCs ave have been for years thanks to Greenpeace proving the performance and the safety case back in the late 80s/early 90s)

 

Why 150 gram charge limits? Because they thought it would be impossible to make anything except a fridge work with 150 grams. Safety case and leak rates / room ventilation rates suggest more like 1 kg is a safe charge that's vanishingly unlikely to manage to create an explosive atmosphere indoors given how units leak. (pinholes rather than explosive leaks - assuming that they're factory pressure tested to well in excess of operating pressure first you'd be hard pressed to dump the charge fast enough to create an explosive environment)

 

We'll see fewer damages from these systems than we do gas boilers/cookers or indeed even air fresheners ans smokers in cars. Every year somebody blows the bloody doors off trying to hide their fragrant tobacco. 😂

[JohnMo]

It's all rubbish really when you see how much industry looses per year via small (!) leaks.

 

Doing an improvement project for one offshore site, they lost the equivalent of 300 tonnes of CO2 in a year, through so called small refrigerant leaks.