Taylor Wimpey "Net Zero" Chobham Manor houses use 3x expected energy

[Roger440]

5 hours ago, Kelvin said:

Having borne witness to a supposed quality team this isn’t in the least surprising. They genuinely think that because there’s a lot of insulation in the building then it must be good by default. When I explained that leaving gaps or even small bits unfilled significantly reduces the U value of the wall/ceiling it just went over their heads. Air tightness was like the dark arts. They are building houses with very little appreciation of building physics. Until the regulations tighten up and every house is properly tested then this isn’t going to improve. 

 

Regulations are not the issue. Enforcement is. Regulation changes are completely pointless without enforcement. There has to be consequences to ignoring regulations. Currently the only consequence is that the inspector/BCO/self cetifier/builder/developer all get to make more money. The very opposite of whats required!

[Kelvin]

The regulations are hardly difficult to hit. Builders can do the bare minimum and still get within them. We need much tighter building regs and yes enforcement of them. 

[MikeGrahamT21]

My BCO who is the head of the local authority department, didn’t even know what MVHR was. Pre plaster inspection and he said “what on earth are those pipes for!?”, followed by “oh yeah your doing that, what’s it called aren’t you”.

 

he doesn’t even understand half the stuff I’ve done, just signs it off

[Roger440]

8 minutes ago, MikeGrahamT21 said:

My BCO who is the head of the local authority department, didn’t even know what MVHR was. Pre plaster inspection and he said “what on earth are those pipes for!?”, followed by “oh yeah your doing that, what’s it called aren’t you”.

 

he doesn’t even understand half the stuff I’ve done, just signs it off

 

Exactly what im saying. He doesnt need to know. Or care. There can be no comeback on him. He is fully protected. Just sign stuff off and collect the money. 

[Roger440]

26 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

The regulations are hardly difficult to hit. Builders can do the bare minimum and still get within them. We need much tighter building regs and yes enforcement of them. 

 

I think you need to keep the two things seperate. Whether or not the regs are easy to achieve or  need tightening is entirely seperate point. We both know its not rocket science.

 

Id still suggest, however, thats its pointless doing so as we are not building to current regs, or even ones before that. If we were to achieve a resonable degree of compliance with the regs, then, and only then consider tightening the regs.

 

What can possibly be gained from tightening the regs, that almost no one complies with? Indeed, it will have the opposite effect. Compliance will fall further. As it will be even more unfathomable to the average builder.

 

Indeed, as an aside, ive been trying to get some 1200ga vapour barrier. 3 weeks ive been trying, without sucess. With time ticking by, i had to resort to a 7 hour round trip to manchester. An "interesting" coversation with visqueen direct was had whilst trying to track some done. The conclusion from that farce, is that few people are buying or using this stuff. NONE of the major players have any stock to speak of, despite all being "stockists". So just, what exactly are the trade doing? I think i know. Not using any. 

 

Even when i spoke to people, i was offered DPM's instead, incorrect tapes, offers of all sorts of other "stuff" that complied with nothing, never mind the EN standard. Apart from visqueen themselves, no one understood why i wanted what i wanted and why didnt i just do what everyone else did. ie, use an unsuitable product.

 

I cant see the current situation in the trade is recoverable.

 

In the OP's case, its a refurb, so ive no idea why you would even involve a BCO unless its being brought back from derelict and contact with them is unavoidable.

 

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, Roger440 said:

my rants about building control, the whole system is pointless

And as I have  retorted before, think how much worse it would be without.

The incompetent builder is scared of the BCO.

But a BCO can hardly accuse an air tester of incompetence or lying.

 

Yes some bco's   are rubbish, but I've met plenty of very good ones.

[SteamyTea]

8 hours ago, Roger440 said:

There has to be consequences to ignoring regulations. Currently the only consequence is that the inspector/BCO/self cetifier/builder/developer all get to make more money. The very opposite of whats required!

Don't forget the energy retailers and heating companies. They get to sell more.

[Simon R]

This is just an altogether rather depressing thread, especially given the implications for lifetime C02 associated with the build. As several people have pointed out nothing is going to change until home buyers become aware of the real cost of not building airtight structures. It may help if buyers started demanding airtightness tests as part of their surveys. The test cost next to nothing in real terms and tell you so much about the cost to heat a structure. Certainly U values are important but nothing like as easy to verify as airtightness.

I don't believe the big building firms will do a darn thing until buyers start holding them to account and to do this airtightness needs to be part of sales contract.

[Duncan62]

6 minutes ago, Simon R said:

I don't believe the big building firms will do a darn thing until buyers start holding them to account and to do this airtightness needs to be part of sales contract.

 

I agree.

 

The general public have no objective standards when purchasing the most expensive thing they will ever buy.

 

Contrast this to a car purchase, or even a toaster. Very few of those tout period features or 1900s technology as a selling feature. Because no one would buy them if they did.

 

 

[Marvin]

9 hours ago, Roger440 said:

Indeed, as an aside, ive been trying to get some 1200ga vapour barrier. 3 weeks ive been trying, without sucess. With time ticking by, i had to resort to a 7 hour round trip to

https://www.screwfix.com/p/radbar-radon-barrier-green-1200ga-15m-x-4m/5664p

[MikeGrahamT21]

10 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

I think you need to keep the two things seperate. Whether or not the regs are easy to achieve or  need tightening is entirely seperate point. We both know its not rocket science.

 

Id still suggest, however, thats its pointless doing so as we are not building to current regs, or even ones before that. If we were to achieve a resonable degree of compliance with the regs, then, and only then consider tightening the regs.

 

What can possibly be gained from tightening the regs, that almost no one complies with? Indeed, it will have the opposite effect. Compliance will fall further. As it will be even more unfathomable to the average builder.

 

Indeed, as an aside, ive been trying to get some 1200ga vapour barrier. 3 weeks ive been trying, without sucess. With time ticking by, i had to resort to a 7 hour round trip to manchester. An "interesting" coversation with visqueen direct was had whilst trying to track some done. The conclusion from that farce, is that few people are buying or using this stuff. NONE of the major players have any stock to speak of, despite all being "stockists". So just, what exactly are the trade doing? I think i know. Not using any. 

 

Even when i spoke to people, i was offered DPM's instead, incorrect tapes, offers of all sorts of other "stuff" that complied with nothing, never mind the EN standard. Apart from visqueen themselves, no one understood why i wanted what i wanted and why didnt i just do what everyone else did. ie, use an unsuitable product.

 

I cant see the current situation in the trade is recoverable.

 

In the OP's case, its a refurb, so ive no idea why you would even involve a BCO unless its being brought back from derelict and contact with them is unavoidable.

 

 

When you get to 1200ga thickness, it becomes known as a Radon Barrier and DPC in one: https://www.toolstation.com/radon-barrier-300mu-1200g-gauge/p78204

[Kelvin]

48 minutes ago, Simon R said:

This is just an altogether rather depressing thread, especially given the implications for lifetime C02 associated with the build. As several people have pointed out nothing is going to change until home buyers become aware of the real cost of not building airtight structures. It may help if buyers started demanding airtightness tests as part of their surveys. The test cost next to nothing in real terms and tell you so much about the cost to heat a structure. Certainly U values are important but nothing like as easy to verify as airtightness.

I don't believe the big building firms will do a darn thing until buyers start holding them to account and to do this airtightness needs to be part of sales contract.

They can demand an air tightness test but what then? It’s not really fixable after the house is up without taking it apart. The regulations need to change so that every house is tested and signed off as it’s built. I disagree with the argument that the regulations can’t change until the current regs are enforced. You do both so that you are enforcing to a better standard. Current air tightness regs are very poor anyway so enforcing to that standard doesn’t really improve things that much. 
 

There also needs to be a culture change in the industry across the big builders so that they have building efficient houses as their ‘just cause’. Given none of them are doing it, it seems to me to be an opportunity for one of the builders to set themselves apart. It might make their houses a bit dearer but the sell is better houses that are cheaper to run. 

[MikeGrahamT21]

1 hour ago, Kelvin said:

They can demand an air tightness test but what then? It’s not really fixable after the house is up without taking it apart. The regulations need to change so that every house is tested and signed off as it’s built. I disagree with the argument that the regulations can’t change until the current regs are enforced. You do both so that you are enforcing to a better standard. Current air tightness regs are very poor anyway so enforcing to that standard doesn’t really improve things that much. 
 

There also needs to be a culture change in the industry across the big builders so that they have building efficient houses as their ‘just cause’. Given none of them are doing it, it seems to me to be an opportunity for one of the builders to set themselves apart. It might make their houses a bit dearer but the sell is better houses that are cheaper to run. 

 

The biggest issue for me, is that they are working for themselves, they are building essentially without a customer. They are building the houses to their own spec, and hope that someone will buy it on completion, which of course they will. It could even be a case of voting with our pockets, if no one buys them, they won't build them that way anymore, but thats not going to happen either.

 

I've worked on quite a few sites over the years, building new schools, and they are very strict on air testing, I remember one in the north east where they failed the air test, and it was a big big deal, it had to be sorted, because the contractors were employed to build for the local council (was one of the last local authority builds i did).

[Roger440]

4 hours ago, Marvin said:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/radbar-radon-barrier-green-1200ga-15m-x-4m/5664p

 

Thats a radon barrier. Which, according to what ive found, and the manufacturers tell me, are not the same thing as a vapour barrier. If it is the same thing, no one is admitting it.

 

And ive no intention of finding out by fitting it then having a problem. I suspect the average builder is rather less choosy.

 

Screwfix also list a vapour barrier, but unfortunately, the tech info and testing againt the EN number say its a damp poroof membrane. Indeed, one of the reviews says as much. Needless to say, screwfix have not updated there website, and no doubt they continue to sell the product, and people then fit the wrong product.

[Roger440]

3 hours ago, MikeGrahamT21 said:

 

When you get to 1200ga thickness, it becomes known as a Radon Barrier and DPC in one: https://www.toolstation.com/radon-barrier-300mu-1200g-gauge/p78204

 

Didnt see this when i replied above. Where does this info come from? Is it verifiable. Visquuen, for example list all 3 as seperate products, with differing tech sheets.

 

Whilst you may well be right, i really want to see it from a manufacturer.

 

[Roger440]

3 hours ago, Kelvin said:

They can demand an air tightness test but what then? It’s not really fixable after the house is up without taking it apart. The regulations need to change so that every house is tested and signed off as it’s built. I disagree with the argument that the regulations can’t change until the current regs are enforced. You do both so that you are enforcing to a better standard. Current air tightness regs are very poor anyway so enforcing to that standard doesn’t really improve things that much. 
 

There also needs to be a culture change in the industry across the big builders so that they have building efficient houses as their ‘just cause’. Given none of them are doing it, it seems to me to be an opportunity for one of the builders to set themselves apart. It might make their houses a bit dearer but the sell is better houses that are cheaper to run. 

 

You can change the regs all you like. But who is going to sign off and test each one? Who doing that would be truly independant? Where would all these people come from. Who will they work for. What penalties will there be on the testers for non compliance? What about all the other aspects, like insulation. Thats multiple times more involved.

 

The reality is, there are no answers to those questions that can realistically be implemented.

 

Likewise, how will this "culture change" happen. Where will the thousands of technically capable people come from? Who will they work for? Who will manage them?

 

In my experience the cost of running a house barely figures on the radar. For 99% of people, when buying a house, theres a choice of one. Its not like buying a car, where you can peruse the performance details of each and say, id like that one please to a salesman whos falling over himself to make the sale. Thats not how house buying works. Houses are in short supply, prices are high, and its very hard to actually get a purchase over the line. A notional lower long term cost just isnt relevant in that context.

 

 

[MikeGrahamT21]

22 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

Didnt see this when i replied above. Where does this info come from? Is it verifiable. Visquuen, for example list all 3 as seperate products, with differing tech sheets.

 

Whilst you may well be right, i really want to see it from a manufacturer.

 

if it stops radon gas coming through it’ll definitely stop any water vapour passing through it.

 

in what situation are you using this barrier?

I’ve used radon barrier as above underneath oversite concrete, and everywhere else used a combined air and vapour control layer such as this https://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/product/barriair-vapour-control-layer-air-barrier-by-protect-15m-x-50m.html?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiApuCrBhAuEiwA8VJ6JjllfP_hI4URp9992b8XIkJ_q9BRbxq9iNkRywsDBMsJ5qNL4jbmPxoCjLoQAvD_BwE

also seen this product in stock - https://insulationwholesale.co.uk/polythene-vapour-control-layer-1200g-4m-x-25m-green/

 

but definitely depends where it’s to be located

Edited December 12, 2023 by MikeGrahamT21

[Kelvin]

25 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

You can change the regs all you like. But who is going to sign off and test each one? Who doing that would be truly independant? Where would all these people come from. Who will they work for. What penalties will there be on the testers for non compliance? What about all the other aspects, like insulation. Thats multiple times more involved.

 

The reality is, there are no answers to those questions that can realistically be implemented.

 

Likewise, how will this "culture change" happen. Where will the thousands of technically capable people come from? Who will they work for? Who will manage them?

 

In my experience the cost of running a house barely figures on the radar. For 99% of people, when buying a house, theres a choice of one. Its not like buying a car, where you can peruse the performance details of each and say, id like that one please to a salesman whos falling over himself to make the sale. Thats not how house buying works. Houses are in short supply, prices are high, and its very hard to actually get a purchase over the line. A notional lower long term cost just isnt relevant in that context.

 

 

In which case nothing will change and the UK will continue to build sub-standard houses. Commercial buildings are typically built to a higher standard so the building industry is capable of doing it. 
 

If you can’t test every house or substantially enough of them randomly with no notice then the regulations mean nothing which is exactly where we are today and why we have the example that started this thread. 
 

The culture change can only come from the boards of the big building companies. Like I said they need to think about their ‘just cause’ and configure their businesses to meet it. Here’s the Taylor Wimpey why choose us page, match that to the opening post. I doubt it’s a one off example of that particular set of TW houses. They will all be the same or similar. 
 

https://www.taylorwimpey.co.uk/why-choose-us/why-taylor-wimpey

 

Knowing what I now know about building I’d advise no one to ever buy a new build as you can be reasonably certain they are mostly all poorly built. 

[Simon R]

4 hours ago, Kelvin said:

They can demand an air tightness test but what then?

Perhaps we should follow the Germans and make it law.

https://www.renewable-ei.org/en/activities/column/REupdate/20220721.php

Having no experience of house building, with the aid of the folks of on this forum have managed to build a very low energy house, so it's not rocket science. I had the choice of multiple build methods all of which could deliver a low energy solution. I also don't believe it costs appreciably more that traditional methods. We all know the story of the motor manufactures who pushed back against the cost of fitting seat belts....the same is true of the building industry today. The consequences of not fixing this is bad for the planet and bad for the economy.

 

[Kelvin]

I completely agree. I’ve built a much better house than if I had gone turnkey with the timber kit company. It could have been better still now I know a bit more. Has it cost substantially more? Not really.  I could have built the fabric for a bit less. Air tightness is more about careful detailing than cost of materials so it’s mostly some extra labour. The trades don’t have the patience for it. I showed them how to tape corners correctly for example (by making up corners) for the next build they were moving onto. I asked the apprentice if they did it how I showed them and he said no. They also didn’t tape up the ductwork through the walls either after me showing them how I did mine. Consequently the air tightness score was just within the regs. 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Kelvin said:

Here’s the Taylor Wimpey why choose us page, 

I looke at their page in disbelief. That is such hypocrisy.

 I have experience of the utter lack of quality control.

Anything for a sale.

 

Perhaps they are not the worst?  That wouldn't be much of a sales pitch though.

[Kelvin]

18 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

I looke at their page in disbelief. That is such hypocrisy.

 I have experience of the utter lack of quality control.

Anything for a sale.

 

Perhaps they are not the worst?  That wouldn't be much of a sales pitch though.

Go to any website of any of the big builders and they’ll have a similar why choose us page. It’s all mostly just words on a page.

[saveasteading]

38 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

It’s all mostly just words on a page

At least it is some form of 'promise". It may just have some weight in s formal claim (or give structure to a complaint).

I'd be forever quoting  bits of this back at them when they try to fob off /deny  resonsibility.

[Kelvin]

2 hours ago, saveasteading said:

At least it is some form of 'promise". It may just have some weight in s formal claim (or give structure to a complaint).

I'd be forever quoting  bits of this back at them when they try to fob off /deny  resonsibility.

It’s my favourite tactic when dealing with companies quoting their nonsense back to them. Companies write these things because they think it’s the right thing to say without giving any thought to are they actually doing it. 

[Roger440]

8 hours ago, MikeGrahamT21 said:

if it stops radon gas coming through it’ll definitely stop any water vapour passing through it.

 

in what situation are you using this barrier?

I’ve used radon barrier as above underneath oversite concrete, and everywhere else used a combined air and vapour control layer such as this https://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/product/barriair-vapour-control-layer-air-barrier-by-protect-15m-x-50m.html?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiApuCrBhAuEiwA8VJ6JjllfP_hI4URp9992b8XIkJ_q9BRbxq9iNkRywsDBMsJ5qNL4jbmPxoCjLoQAvD_BwE

also seen this product in stock - https://insulationwholesale.co.uk/polythene-vapour-control-layer-1200g-4m-x-25m-green/

 

but definitely depends where it’s to be located

 

Internal insulation in workshop inside existing block wall. So potential significant temp variation and high humidity. 

 

The manufacturers i spoke to claim its different. Im not clever enough to see why, and you may well be right. As its mine, i didnt want to take a chance and suffer interstatial condensation. I guess the point is, its a total minefield when you get into it. Trying to get a straight answer, virtually impossible. The sellers will sell you whatever they have. I need to be 100% confident that what im buying is what i need. You are obviously happy to  make those judgements, and live with the consequences if it turns out you are wrong. I dont want to do that.

 

Insulation wholesale dont really have it in stock. In this particular field, nobody stocks anything. Its all bullshit. Its all drop ship. Hence my troubles with 3 different suppliers who all claimed it was in stock, but then couldnt deliver in the quoted timescales. The 4th suppler did get it done, but sdadly the courier thought it was a good idea to not deliver it and sign it say recieved at midnight at their own depott. It has now disappeared without trace.