Clean Heat Market Mechanism to incentivise heat pumps

[sharpener]

48 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

It's only really possible to make that argument as a negative is you already have a battery and a boiler and are thinking of switching to a HP.

 

If you don't already have a battery (which is the majority), then you will be no worse off with a HP Vs a boiler.

 

I think we are at cross purposes here @Beelbeebub. I was merely trying to say (i) we have two existing appliances which run without any electricity at all so it would be wise to keep them as an insurance against power outages and (ii) we would need to expand our battery setup by a lot (like double it in size for ~£3 or 4k which I do not plan to do) to provide a worthwhile backup for the new HP. (I have already upped it from 7 to 10.5kWh in the light of experience the first summer but we would have to re-locate it to add a fourth module on top).

 

Yes the existing battery will run it at full o/p for maybe 3 hours but that presupposes it is full to begin with. By nightfall that will not be the case unless it has been a really good day for PV.

 

I have yet to do the modelling to see whether Octopus Cosy or some other tariff will give the lowest cost, and investigate whether it makes sense to re-charge the battery at daytime rate to run the HP during the peak 1600-1900. Controlling the system to optimise all this may not be easy without some additional hardware as for that we would want the HP inside the inverter control loop but otherwise not.

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by sharpener

[Beelbeebub]

1 hour ago, sharpener said:

 

I think we are at cross purposes here @Beelbeebub. I was merely trying to say (i) we have two existing appliances which run without any electricity at all so it would be wise to keep them as an insurance against power outages and (ii) we would need to expand our battery setup by a lot (like double it in size for ~£3 or 4k which I do not plan to do) to provide a worthwhile backup for the new HP. (I have already upped it from 7 to 10.5kWh in the light of experience the first summer but we would have to re-locate it to add a fourth module on top).

 

Yes the existing battery will run it at full o/p for maybe 3 hours but that presupposes it is full to begin with. By nightfall that will not be the case unless it has been a really good day for PV.

 

I have yet to do the modelling to see whether Octopus Cosy or some other tariff will give the lowest cost, and investigate whether it makes sense to re-charge the battery at daytime rate to run the HP during the peak 1600-1900. Controlling the system to optimise all this may not be easy without some additional hardware as for that we would want the HP inside the inverter control loop but otherwise not.

 

The only really power cut proof heating systems are ones that use no electricity at all (eg wood stove) and if you have one fitted already it's not a bad idea to keep it as a back up.

 

Ironically my wood stove with back boiler was the backup for my gas boiler when we were without gas for 2 weeks a few winters ago due to a fault in the main!

 

The vast majority of power cuts, for the vast majority of people are fairly brief events lasting less than a few hours.

 

Whilst "what happens during a power cut" is a factor, it's not the huge differential between HP and gas that some make it. In the majority of cases the answer is "the same thing as if you had a gas boiler"

[nod]

5 hours ago, Mattg4321 said:

Running a heat pump with a fossil fuel generator sort of defeats the object though!! Ok for very sporadic use I guess!

It’s very like the video most of us have seen Electric car broken down 

Truck with diesel generator charging it back up 😁

 

[Iceverge]

2 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

basically it would have been used to install summer cooling and make co2 emissions worse

 

I guess nobody mentioned slab cooling with air to water heat pumps to them....

 

 

[Beelbeebub]

1 hour ago, Iceverge said:

 

I guess nobody mentioned slab cooling with air to water heat pumps to them....

 

 

To be fair, that isn't really a thing.  As cooling methods go it's pretty poor. It has limited power and condensation is an issue if you try and push it.

 

I'm not aware of any manufacturer that offers *slab* cooling as an approved option (there are some that offer fan coil cooling)

 

It's only done as a hack by some enterprising "prosumers".

 

A2A cooling, on the other hand, is pretty.much how it is designed to be used for the majority of installations. *heating* is the "hack". There are units out there that cannot heat.

 

But you are right, excluding the A2A class on the basis that it is mostly for cooling is a bad move, especially now.

 

1) it's not strictly true, A2A optimised for heating is now a mainstream product

2) cooling during extreme heat events might actually be a sensible idea for the UK

 

What we need to do is strongly discourage (or at least not subsidise) unnecessary "comfort cooling".

 

By this I mean using air con to make a space unnecessarily cool to address poor building design. So no building a glass office box then using a air con to make it 16 degrees during a heat wave so everyone wears jumpers.

 

A simple approach would be to not subsidise any heatpump that can be set to cool below (say) 28C.

 

A2A would be (small) subsidy worthy.

 

There could be subsidies for those that have the space to fit a UV cylinder heated by one. Heck maybe someone might come up with a head unit that transfers to water for UFH so you can have UFH downstairs and fan coils upstairs.

 

[Roger440]

7 hours ago, magnayn said:

 

I

 

Here on planet earth, the majority simply want warm homes and hot water at the lowest cost over the medium term, and frankly everything else comes a distant second. They are not interested in having to tweak weather compensation curves to avoid crazy bills, or constantly tinkering with their system, or endless costs in maintenance. They also don't really want ugly, possibly noisy fan units and large water tanks - but will likely put up with them if it achieves Job #1.

 

 

 

This^^^.

 

I think, especially on here, this is lost. ANYTHING that isnt a case of selecting the desired temp, is going to get a bad reputation.

 

Im a pretty practical kind of guy, and pretty much do everything myself. But i read stuff on here regarding heat pumps and related stuff like solar and batteries, and to be honest, struggle to make sense of it. And im WAY more advanced that the average person, who just wants a heating system.

 

Aside from my cynicism about targets, likely cut off dates and all the other guff,  the sheer complexity of any "new" system, in particular getting it specified and set up, simply steers me to keep my oil boiler long term, even though i will be doing a fairly major amount of work on a rather old house including ignificant reconfiguration of heating.

 

The idea of paying, the frankly bonkers numbers to have a HP system installed rules that out. And they will still be more expensive to run than oil. Granted of course that may change a bit.

 

 

[Roger440]

7 hours ago, magnayn said:

 

I

 

Here on planet earth, the majority simply want warm homes and hot water at the lowest cost over the medium term, and frankly everything else comes a distant second. They are not interested in having to tweak weather compensation curves to avoid crazy bills, or constantly tinkering with their system, or endless costs in maintenance. They also don't really want ugly, possibly noisy fan units and large water tanks - but will likely put up with them if it achieves Job #1.

 

 

 

This^^^.

 

I think, especially on here, this is lost. ANYTHING that isnt a case of selecting the desired temp, is going to get a bad reputation.

 

Im a pretty practical kind of guy, and pretty much do everything myself. But i read stuff on here regarding heat pumps and related stuff like solar and batteries, and to be honest, struggle to make sense of it. And im WAY more advanced that the average person, who just wants a heating system.

 

Aside from my cynicism about targets, likely cut off dates and all the other guff,  the sheer complexity of any "new" system, in particular getting it specified and set up, simply steers me to keep my oil boiler long term, even though i will be doing a fairly major amount of work on a rather old house including ignificant reconfiguration of heating.

 

The idea of paying, the frankly bonkers numbers to have a HP system installed rules that out. And they will still be more expensive to run than oil. Granted of course that may change a bit.

 

 

[Roger440]

14 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

Poor installation is the major problem with HPs.

 

The thing is with this system is you'll also have a reall good record of performance tied to the installer.  Should help root out the real cowboys.  In addition, rather than just a single "one hit" install like now, which is super dependent on the single installer, you would have a phased install over several seasons (possibly using dofferent installers) as the system is progressively upgraded (rads etc) to break even.

 

And as for the very common "heatpumps don't work in a power cut argument".... How well does you combi boiler work in a power cut?

 

Its an oil boiler, not a combi. 

 

When the power goes off, i go outside, pull the main fuse, and start the generator. Problem fixed. Would be better with a battery, but that rather less straight forward, see previous post.

 

[Roger440]

9 hours ago, Iceverge said:

 

Yeah, lets exclude that. 🤪

 

 

 

Are you surprised?

[Beelbeebub]

8 hours ago, Roger440 said:

And they will still be more expensive to run than oil. Granted of course that may change a bit.

I think it will.

 

If you are doing significant work on the heating system, then the answer is simply to make sure you design that new/upgraded system for low temperature operation. Iirc 55C is the current standard, but if you can size it for 45C  then the efficiency of a HP starts to hit the break even with gas.

 

Then, one day in the future when you need to change your boiler you have 5ge option of just dropping in a HP. 

[FarmerN]

34 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

 

 

If you are doing significant work on the heating system, then the answer is simply to make sure you design that new/upgraded system for low temperature operation. Iirc 55C is the current standard, but if you can size it for 45C  then the efficiency of a HP starts to hit the break even with gas.

 

 

Trying to do exactly that at the moment, I want to run DHW at 43-45 C but told its almost impossible to buy a thermostatic shower mixer valve that will give me a hot shower at that temperature.

I want to stick to a thermostatic valve, not manual,  to deal with the 55-60C temperature of the weekly sterilzation cylcle.

Edited December 4, 2023 by FarmerN
spelling

[Conor]

3 minutes ago, FarmerN said:

Trying to do exactly that at the moment, I want to run DHW at 43-45 C but told its almost impossible to buy a thermostatic shower mixer valve that will give me a hot shower at that temperature.

I want to stick to a thermostatic valve, not manual,  to deal with the 55-60C temperature of the weekly sterilzation cylcle.

Most mixers work at those temps. All of ours do. Just the manufacturer's don't state this. And sterilisation not needed on a modern closed system.

[JohnMo]

24 minutes ago, Conor said:

 And sterilisation not needed on a modern closed system.

Even if it was needed; as long as the system volume is suitably sized to give a good turn over of water, a normal heating regime is good for sterilising anyway. If you are turning over most the volume of the cylinder each day looks like to store at any temp you want. But if you have a huge cylinder and low usage there could be issues.

 

[Beelbeebub]

1 hour ago, FarmerN said:

Trying to do exactly that at the moment, I want to run DHW at 43-45 C but told its almost impossible to buy a thermostatic shower mixer valve that will give me a hot shower at that temperature.

I want to stick to a thermostatic valve, not manual,  to deal with the 55-60C temperature of the weekly sterilzation cylcle.

Our DHW is about 40-45C and our thermostatic mixer showers work fine.

 

The only issue we have had, is our Mira unit makes a whining sound at certain combinations of temp and flow. I don't think that is directly caused by the lower DHW temp. Annoyingly one of those settings seems to be the one everyone likes!  

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, Beelbeebub said:

I think it will.

 

If you are doing significant work on the heating system, then the answer is simply to make sure you design that new/upgraded system for low temperature operation. Iirc 55C is the current standard, but if you can size it for 45C  then the efficiency of a HP starts to hit the break even with gas.

 

Then, one day in the future when you need to change your boiler you have 5ge option of just dropping in a HP. 

 

I intend to do do exactly that. But thats because i have a resonable level of understanding.

 

Were i an uninformed average customer, that wouldnt happen. They would get to pay twice. 

 

Ref oil cost, i dont think it will. Certainly not anytime soon.  They either have to increase oil prices or decrease electricity. The latter clearly isnt going to happen.  Will be a brave government who choose to increase, artifically, heating oil given the usage profile and low number of affected household. Worst case is, its the same price as road disel. If it was higher even, than that, id just use road diesel or red disel if that still exsists by then instead. As will most people pushed that far. Which at current prices would be circa 16p per kwh.

 

So even if it does get to that, the difference wont pay for itself in my likely lifetime. Ill probably be dead before then.

 

Of course, they may forcibly install one, as the new legislation gives them the right to do. Not much i can do about that.

[joth]

14 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

A2A would be (small) subsidy worthy.

 

Just a note that A2A already has a small subsidy in the form of zero-rated VAT on supply&install

 

 

 

 

[Roger440]

21 minutes ago, joth said:

Just a note that A2A already has a small subsidy in the form of zero-rated VAT on supply&install

 

 

 

 

 

But not on supply only i presume?

 

[joth]

10 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

But not on supply only i presume?

 

Indeed - like all energy saving measures, doing it yourself would seem to be the "luxury" option so gets full VAT.

 

[Beelbeebub]

10 minutes ago, joth said:

Indeed - like all energy saving measures, doing it yourself would seem to be the "luxury" option so gets full VAT.

 

Things like zero vat on units *as long as they have limits on cooling* would be sensible.

 

A2A units need a qualified installer due to the f-gas regs*. It's probably a bad thing if we start allowing Joe Bloggs to piss about spraying refidgerant about willy nilly.

 

*Technically r290 doesn't fall under fgas regs but that isn't something that we should he encouraging mass DIYing. If we can come up with a non toxic, non flammable, zero ozone depletion, low GWP refidgerant with good performance then maybe. 

[Roger440]

35 minutes ago, joth said:

Indeed - like all energy saving measures, doing it yourself would seem to be the "luxury" option so gets full VAT.

 

 

Indeed. So companies owned by "chums" can harvest some more money.

 

I just need to find someone willing to leave all the gear for me to fit, but claim they installed it anyway. Or let them install it, then take it out and do it properly once they have gone, and reconnect my oil boiler as back up.

 

[magnayn]

4 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

*Technically r290 doesn't fall under fgas regs but that isn't something that we should he encouraging mass DIYing. If we can come up with a non toxic, non flammable, zero ozone depletion, low GWP refidgerant with good performance then maybe. 

 

I couldn't disagree more.

 

If you want to see an end to the use of fossil fuels, we should be encouraging installations by any means possible.

 

The general public can also buy chainsaws, engage in dangerous sports, wire up plugs, drive cars, go on bull-runs and countless other activities with vastly higher risk profiles and I find it frankly tiring that we just nod along when the "regulation and certification" industrial complex captures yet more under its grift.

 

 

[SteamyTea]

On 03/12/2023 at 11:59, JohnMo said:

We've got a generator - got it prior to the heat pump, but it runs the heat pump with no issues

Have you ever looked into the costs of running it?

A diesel CHP unit that also runs a small HP could be an interesting option.

Diesel, at the pumps is about 15p/kWh at the moment.

[JohnMo]

11 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Have you ever looked into the costs of running it?

A diesel CHP unit that also runs a small HP could be an interesting option.

Diesel, at the pumps is about 15p/kWh at the moment.

Not really looked, overall didn't get much use, we had/have about 3 power cuts a year, from 2 hours to about 6 hours. We have a big battery now, so power outages are less noticeable.

[Iceverge]

23 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

To be fair, that isn't really a thing.  As cooling methods go it's pretty poor. It has limited power and condensation is an issue if you try and push it.

 

I'm not aware of any manufacturer that offers *slab* cooling as an approved option (there are some that offer fan coil cooling)

 

Daikin do it as an out of the box product. 

 

23 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

 

 

 

[Beelbeebub]

4 hours ago, magnayn said:

If you want to see an end to the use of fossil fuels, we should be encouraging installations by any means possible.

Agree.......but....

 

4 hours ago, magnayn said:

The general public can also buy chainsaws, engage in dangerous sports, wire up plugs, drive cars, go on bull-runs and countless other activities with vastly higher risk profiles and I find it frankly tiring that we just nod along when the "regulation and certification" industrial complex captures yet more under its grift.

I work in building maintainance and with tenants and from my experience the average "handiness" of householders in the UK is frankly terrible.

 

The increase in refridgerant emissions from unrestricted DIY sale would be pretty large and given 1kg of r410 is equivalent to over 2tons of CO2 or about 40% an average UK citizen's annual emissions 

 

R32 is better at about 600kgCO2 per kg, but even that would be counter productive if left in the hands of the public.

 

R290 is negligible for global warming so it's just the flammability issue.

 

If someone could come up with a non toxic, non flammable, low GWP, low odp refridgerant - then I would say have at it.  We should be selling those units on Amazon and in Screwfix.