RichardL Posted November 26, 2023 Share Posted November 26, 2023 On 25/11/2023 at 14:03, HughF said: monitoring .... heat output via a smart heat meter. Is this a thing? How does it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReedRichards Posted November 26, 2023 Share Posted November 26, 2023 If you know the leaving and return water temperatures and the water flow rate then you can calculate the heat that has been output. I suppose this is slightly wrong because you really need to know how long it takes for water leaving to return and take that delay into account but I suppose that doesn't make much odds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelbeebub Posted November 27, 2023 Share Posted November 27, 2023 8 hours ago, RichardL said: Is this a thing? How does it work. Heat meters are a thing - see @ReedRichards description. Smart meters that automatically send the data to your energy supplier are a thing. There just needs to be the framework (and cash) to set up the scheme. Heat meters were already required to be fitted for the now defunct RHI scheme. But that scheme didn't tiw in with consumption, you were just paid a fixed price for the amount of heat you generated. So the innovation is just around how you calculate the bill. I did a quick fag packet estimate a while ago. I think the subsidy over 5 years for a typical UK house achieving a SCOP of 2.5 is around £2,500 (very round numbers). This is about the recent uplift of the BUS grant from £5k to £7.5k. So from a cost point of view this scheme could have been added to the original £5k install grant for no more(ish) than the cost of making the grant £7.5k plus you could recoup extra from a tax on gas bills. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReedRichards Posted November 27, 2023 Share Posted November 27, 2023 1 hour ago, Beelbeebub said: Heat meters were already required to be fitted for the now defunct RHI scheme. No, they were just an optional extra unless you had a hybrid system, in which case they became mandatory. But you got paid a bit extra from the RHI scheme if you had a heat meter fitted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelbeebub Posted November 27, 2023 Share Posted November 27, 2023 6 hours ago, ReedRichards said: No, they were just an optional extra unless you had a hybrid system, in which case they became mandatory. But you got paid a bit extra from the RHI scheme if you had a heat meter fitted. Sorry, you're correct. But the point is measuring actual heat delivered and recording it for billing/subsidy use is a thing that has been done. I can't think of a technical road block to my scheme. I can think of plenty of ways to screw it up from a political or organisational perspective. But then that seems to be pretty much true of most government actions these days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniacs Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 On 24/11/2023 at 09:04, ProDave said: One sentence sums it up. "The Norwegians also benefit from well insulated houses" Absolutely this. The best form of heating is insulation. Insulate your house until the heating system becomes small and unimportant... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 13 minutes ago, eniacs said: The best form of heating is insulation Just to clarify, insulation does not supply thermal energy, it helps reduce the losses. Regardless of what the 'infra-red brigade' claim, most domestic heating is to increase the air temperature (humans come from a part of Africa that has a mean temperature of around 26°C). It takes a lot less energy to keep air up to temperature than the structure of a building, so if that air is insulated from the cold, or at least cooler, walls. windows, roofs, doors etc, and the ventilation is at a minimum for comfort, the heat demand is less. You can flip this idea and do the sums. Say you heat all your surfaces to 20°C, but constantly change the air so that it is at 10°C. How comfortable do you think you are. Actually I can answer that as I had a 5 hour drive without a car heater on Sunday. It was (expletive deleted)ing horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReedRichards Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 1 hour ago, SteamyTea said: Actually I can answer that as I had a 5 hour drive without a car heater on Sunday. It was (expletive deleted)ing horrible. I have this wacky idea that as we are all going to end up driving electric cars, then cars of the future will need to be much better insulated than those of today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 4 minutes ago, ReedRichards said: I have this wacky idea that as we are all going to end up driving electric cars, then cars of the future will need to be much better insulated than those of today. I think that globally, cars will need cooling more than heating as the emerging markets tends to be in warmer places. Tinted glass and a silver wrap, cruising down the Silk Road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelbeebub Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 1 hour ago, ReedRichards said: I have this wacky idea that as we are all going to end up driving electric cars, then cars of the future will need to be much better insulated than those of today. Nah...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted November 28, 2023 Author Share Posted November 28, 2023 2 hours ago, ReedRichards said: I have this wacky idea that as we are all going to end up driving electric cars, then cars of the future will need to be much better insulated than those of today. I think that is a long way down the line of development... Lighter weight per usable kW, and longer lasting, safe and far easier to recycle cheap batteries would be my first desire. When this is solved I would be a happy bunny. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 1 minute ago, Marvin said: Lighter weight per usable kW What do you mean by that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted November 28, 2023 Author Share Posted November 28, 2023 3 hours ago, SteamyTea said: Actually I can answer that as I had a 5 hour drive without a car heater on Sunday. It was (expletive deleted)ing horrible. Hi @SteamyTea Weren't you the one that said words to the effect of "don't turn the heating up wear an extra jumper."??? M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted November 28, 2023 Author Share Posted November 28, 2023 1 minute ago, SteamyTea said: What do you mean by that? Ok you win. Lighter weight per kWh of usable energy for those of you who miss understood my explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 1 minute ago, Marvin said: Weren't you the one that said words to the effect of "don't turn the heating up wear an extra jumper." Possibly. I was not expecting after a 400 mile drive for the water pump (the garage thinks) to fail on the M4. That left me 200 miles to go, hardly touching the peddle, to keep the fuel input down to save the engine. If anyone was wondering who the shivering twat in a Ford C-Max, doing 40 MPH on the M5 was. It was me. Got home without it boiling over, but no heater, that water vanished somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted November 28, 2023 Author Share Posted November 28, 2023 2 hours ago, SteamyTea said: I think that globally, cars will need cooling more than heating as the emerging markets tends to be in warmer places. Tinted glass and a silver wrap, cruising down the Silk Road. I think that vehicles will need to be more thermally resistant... After all the aim is to keep the temperature inside the vehicle to a human desirable temperature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 2 minutes ago, Marvin said: Lighter weight per kWh of usable energy I don't think that BEVs are that far off comparable ICEs these days. A Tesla Model 3 long range has a curb weight of 1840 kg. BMW 330d xDrive G20 1820 kg. They are comparable cars. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelbeebub Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: I don't think that BEVs are that far off comparable ICEs these days. A Tesla Model 3 long range has a curb weight of 1840 kg. BMW 330d xDrive G20 1820 kg. They are comparable cars. and the problem is both are porky! I know modern safety standards dose impose a weight penalty, but we are also making cars heavier by making them bigger, more powerful and with more stuff. A MK1 golf weight well under 1,000kg and a mk1 Polo could be under 700kg The latest Golfs can weigh more than 1,500kg and the lightest polo weighs more than the heaviest MK1 golf at 1,100kg When Tesla make a car with 400bhp and a 0-60 that would shame a decade old Supercar, that doesn't help efficiency of materials or consumption. We should be going back to lighter, smaller (at least externally) vehicles with "sufficient" performance (say 0-60 in a glacial 7 seconds and a top speed of only 70mph) The problem is, driving such a car would be less pleasant when everyone else is roaring around in 5 meter long, 2.5t pickup trucks at 90mph. I think Ciroen have the right idea with their Oli concept (thought the looks are somewhat errrr unique) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 3 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said: A MK1 golf weight well under 1,000kg and a mk1 Polo could be under 700kg And they were, by today's standards, horrible to drive. When I was a teenager, I had a Hillman Imp, 725 kg. It never felt safe, was dreadfully slow (though quicker than a Mini 850), handled peculiarly and did about 45 MPG. My current car did 66 MPG with a boiling engine. We could make cars light and safe, make them out of well designed composite plastic, but I don't think that anyone wants to pay £80k for a car that cannot take 5 people and luggage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 3 hours ago, ReedRichards said: I have this wacky idea that as we are all going to end up driving electric cars, then cars of the future will need to be much better insulated than those of today. Why? Our EV heats up just fine. It has a heat pump but I often just rely on the heated seats and heated steering wheel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 47 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: was not expecting after a 400 mile drive for the water pump (the garage thinks) to fail on the M4. That left me 200 miles to go, hardly touching the peddle, to keep the fuel input down to save the engine. If anyone was wondering who the shivering twat in a Ford C-Max, doing 40 MPH on the M5 was. It was me. Got home without it boiling over, but no heater, that water vanished somewhere. That is what breakdown insurance is for. You could have had a ride home in the nice warm cab of the recovery truck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 1 minute ago, ProDave said: That is what breakdown insurance is for. You could have had a ride home in the nice warm cab of the recovery truck. Yes. I have not had breakdown coverage for 7 years now, not since I got rid of the Renault. I tried to call the AA and the RAC to join, both times I pressed the 'new member' option I got cut off. I do know that join after you have broken down is horribly expensive (had to do it after owning the Renault for 3 weeks). I also did not fancy having my knee touched up for several hours. As it was, there was enough thermo-syphoning to get me home. Just had to limit my speed. Modern cars are marvels really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted November 28, 2023 Author Share Posted November 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Kelvin said: Why? Our EV heats up just fine. It has a heat pump but I often just rely on the heated seats and heated steering wheel. Ditto. lovely steering wheel warmth.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 2 hours ago, SteamyTea said: was not expecting after a 400 mile drive for the water pump (the garage thinks) to fail on the M4 Here it is. If you want a water pump to last almost 17 years, get a Ford one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelbeebub Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 2 hours ago, SteamyTea said: And they were, by today's standards, horrible to drive. When I was a teenager, I had a Hillman Imp, 725 kg. It never felt safe, was dreadfully slow (though quicker than a Mini 850), handled peculiarly and did about 45 MPG. My current car did 66 MPG with a boiling engine. We could make cars light and safe, make them out of well designed composite plastic, but I don't think that anyone wants to pay £80k for a car that cannot take 5 people and luggage. Safety standards have definitely improved and that has undoubtedly added weight. Luxuries like sound proofing, aircon, electric mirrors and windows are very welcome and have also added weight. I'm not suggesting we all go back to driving 2CVs and Imps. But the number of people who need a 7 seat car capable of 150mph and a sub 5 second quarter mile is pretty low. Especially for the school run. There should be a middle ground. The trend for bigger vehicles like SUVs etc was already erasing the efficiency gains of better engines before EVs. The thing with EVs is that poor efficiency has a much bigger impact on price and performance than with ICE cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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