Nearby Piling, advice needed!

[Residential build]

Hello!

 

Looking for some advice, a development of two new detached houses has started in the neighbouring plot to us. They are having to put a lot of piles in before they can start building. Piling into sand, with clay pockets and lumps of sandstone.
 

Our home is an older (100-ish yrs) 3 storey semidetached cottage, built with brick, sandstone and lime mortar. We’re on a base of greensand and very little in terms of foundations under the old part of the house. We added an extension on the end nearest the development 14yrs ago which does have 1m deep concrete foundations also. They are putting piles in up to 6m from our home. It’s been going on approximately 2 days now and the vibrations are pretty spectacular. We had no warning they were starting and when I approached with my concerns, they told me it was normal and unless I had items jumping off shelves, it would be fine…. Advice please! Local building control aren’t interested as this development is registered with an independent firm a good distance from here. I’ve take photos of our walls and floors etc but feeling quite concerned as the whole house bounces with every thud and they have a lot to do. Should a survey have been done on neighbouring properties before they started? 

[Carrerahill]

I think I would find a friendly local structural engineer to pop out and see you, agree a cost for visit and a cost to record findings, but not necessarily present, at this stage. If anything happens you have the ability to have a before and after report detailing any structural, or other related damage.

 

I would inform the main contractor immediately of the steps you have taken.

 

You may also check your legal cover on your house insurance - they may help here because if your house falls down they won't be best pleased at having to cover the repairs!

 

Photograph your home - have a means of proving things such as show a plumb line hanging adjacent to walls to prove plumb etc. (don't use a spirit level, the accuracy can be argued against easily). Submit these photos on the date taken to your SE and someone else, ideally a consultant or your insurance company or something (find someone who will agree just to receive them and file them so you can prove dates taken. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Carrerahill

[kandgmitchell]

Up to 6m or within 6m? The Party Wall Act does include a requirement to serve notice if your are excavating for foundations within 6m of adjoining properties if your excavation will intersect a line drawn at 45 degrees down from that neighbours foundations. Deep piling could well do that. I'd need to check my references if this is driven piles as no doubt there have been court cases to determine whether that is "excavating". Could be worth a quick google for a local party wall surveyor and asking the question.

[Mr Punter]

What is the piling method?  Even if the works do not fall within the Party Wall Act (within 6m of your building) your house should not be "bouncing".

 

You could get in touch with the LA Environmental Health and complain about the excessive vibration.  They could do some monitoring.

[saveasteading]

Take photographs of the piling rig etc too . I would email them to a friend, as that proves the date.

 

Photos on here would do the same, and let us see them.

 

Does the piling involve big hammers bashing down lumps of steel or concrete?

 

It isn't necessarily a problem. Houses move a lot.

 

If you can work out or estimate the shortest distance from your house to a pile, then that will be interesting too.

[Dreadnaught]

I have screw piles and was advised when doing mine that this form of piling (as it does not remove any soil as such) did not trigger the Party Wall Act.

 

My piles produced almost no vibration so it sounds like yours are not screw piles.

 

And if yours are not then there is a good chance (as described by others above) that the type of pile that your neighbour is using may well fall under the Party Wall Act. In which case you would have plenty of powers to respond.

[saveasteading]

19 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said:

have screw piles and was advised when doing mine that this form of piling (as it does not remove any soil did not trigger the Party Wall Act.

 

I don't think that is the case. It is still transmitting loads into the ground, to the complete length of the screw and on the end. You're right, there is no banging.

Also some 'banged' piles simply displace the earth and don't remove it.

But some screw piles do remove earth...its complex.

 

Party Wall involvement doesn’t mean it can't be done, but an independeng SE, paid for by the developer,  makes the judgement. 

[ToughButterCup]

6 hours ago, Residential build said:

...…. Advice please! ... but feeling quite concerned as the whole house bounces with every thud and they have a lot to do. Should a survey have been done on neighbouring properties before they started? 

 

No. There is no requirement for them to survey neighbouring properties. How do I know? I asked before our piles were driven (62 of them)

 

However, ask the site foreman directly if they are recording the shock levels caused by the piling (seismometer) On our piling day, the company hitched a seismometer to our house (we were living next to the build 12 meters away) and those results were recorded on site and transmitted  simultaneously to the company head office.

 

The question to ask is - Does the company have a seismometer recording during piling ? They do so -in part-  to protect themselves from unfounded claims from neighbouring properties. I have forgotten the shock threshold for stopping piling - the foreman did tell me.  I filled a bowl with water and food colouring and recorded the wavelets on the surface. The size of those wavelets increased significantly when the rig hit some underlying sandstone. 

 

Its a very uncomfortable process, especially when you have no control over what happens. You have my sympathy.

 

[torre]

6 hours ago, Residential build said:

piles in up to 6m from our home

 

It's not totally clear but I assume you mean 'less than' 6m from your home? In which case the Party Wall Act may well apply but if what you're seeking is to force them to stop piling (by injunction) you'll definitely need to get qualified legal advice first.

 

Take the earlier advice and document both the piling process and the condition of your own property with photos and videos.

 

I'd also put your concerns in writing to the developers, mentioning the PWA and asking them to either clarify why it does not apply or voluntarily cease works until your property can be surveyed - both by recorded post to their offices and by hand to the site manager. They may fob you off, but if you've raised issues early and documented that, then your position will be much stronger in the worst case of discovering damage later. You could also ask for a copy of their seismometer recording. 

 

Your aim is to emphasise the risk to them of continuing unchecked and the likelihood you'll take action as a result.

[Residential build]

3 hours ago, torre said:

 

It's not totally clear but I assume you mean 'less than' 6m from your home? In which case the Party Wall Act may well apply but if what you're seeking is to force them to stop piling (by injunction) you'll definitely need to get qualified legal advice first.

 

Take the earlier advice and document both the piling process and the condition of your own property with photos and videos.

 

I'd also put your concerns in writing to the developers, mentioning the PWA and asking them to either clarify why it does not apply or voluntarily cease works until your property can be surveyed - both by recorded post to their offices and by hand to the site manager. They may fob you off, but if you've raised issues early and documented that, then your position will be much stronger in the worst case of discovering damage later. You could also ask for a copy of their seismometer recording. 

 

Your aim is to emphasise the risk to them of continuing unchecked and the likelihood you'll take action as a result.

Sorry the closest pile is approx 6m from our gable wall, not less then. I’m not trying to stop the works but I’m concerned that they’ve gone ahead without warning or any checks on the structure of our property, particularly considering it’s age. It’s compression (I believe it’s called) piling - a large cylindrical weight is being dropped from several meters down a steel tube to drive it into the ground. 

[Residential build]

3 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

No. There is no requirement for them to survey neighbouring properties. How do I know? I asked before our piles were driven (62 of them)

 

However, ask the site foreman directly if they are recording the shock levels caused by the piling (seismometer) On our piling day, the company hitched a seismometer to our house (we were living next to the build 12 meters away) and those results were recorded on site and transmitted  simultaneously to the company head office.

 

The question to ask is - Does the company have a seismometer recording during piling ? They do so -in part-  to protect themselves from unfounded claims from neighbouring properties. I have forgotten the shock threshold for stopping piling - the foreman did tell me.  I filled a bowl with water and food colouring and recorded the wavelets on the surface. The size of those wavelets increased significantly when the rig hit some underlying sandstone. 

 

Its a very uncomfortable process, especially when you have no control over what happens. You have my sympathy.

 

Thank you this makes a lot of sense. We’ve had no monitoring equipment offered. I put a number of glasses of water in various areas of the house and filmed them during impacts. And have taken photos of all the walls/floors etc The deeper the pile gets the worse the shocks are and as you’ve mentioned, when they hit sandstone, it’s particularly bad - they seem to do about 8 test drops when they hit rock to see if it will brake or go further. It does make you feel very helpless and unable to protect your own home. The contractors are not very engaging and suspect pretend to not understand English when it suits them. I’m hoping most of the piles near our house have been done now, so hopefully the worst is over but think there are a couple more very near the front of our home still to do. 

[Residential build]

6 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

What is the piling method?  Even if the works do not fall within the Party Wall Act (within 6m of your building) your house should not be "bouncing".

 

You could get in touch with the LA Environmental Health and complain about the excessive vibration.  They could do some monitoring.

Thank you. I think it’s called compression piling? Big cylindrical weight being dropped down a tube from a height? The nearest piles are approx 6m from the house. Thanks for the tip. 👍

[Residential build]

3 hours ago, torre said:

 

It's not totally clear but I assume you mean 'less than' 6m from your home? In which case the Party Wall Act may well apply but if what you're seeking is to force them to stop piling (by injunction) you'll definitely need to get qualified legal advice first.

 

Take the earlier advice and document both the piling process and the condition of your own property with photos and videos.

 

I'd also put your concerns in writing to the developers, mentioning the PWA and asking them to either clarify why it does not apply or voluntarily cease works until your property can be surveyed - both by recorded post to their offices and by hand to the site manager. They may fob you off, but if you've raised issues early and documented that, then your position will be much stronger in the worst case of discovering damage later. You could also ask for a copy of their seismometer recording. 

 

Your aim is to emphasise the risk to them of continuing unchecked and the likelihood you'll take action as a result.

Sorry no, the nearest piles are just over 6m away we think. I have put in writing that I’m concerned about the level of vibrations and let them know about the construction materials and age of our house too. 

[Residential build]

4 hours ago, Dreadnaught said:

I have screw piles and was advised when doing mine that this form of piling (as it does not remove any soil as such) did not trigger the Party Wall Act.

 

My piles produced almost no vibration so it sounds like yours are not screw piles.

 

And if yours are not then there is a good chance (as described by others above) that the type of pile that your neighbour is using may well fall under the Party Wall Act. In which case you would have plenty of powers to respond.

No it’s compression piling not screw piling. It’s a huge weight being dropped from several meters up into steel tube to drive it into the ground. They are piling just over 6m from our house wall. 

[Adsibob]

6 hours ago, Dreadnaught said:

may well fall under the Party Wall Act. In which case you would have plenty of powers to respond.

I’m not sure that’s accurate. Although it is best practice to comply with the PWA, it is not compulsory. It’s power lies in the fact that if you ignore the PWA requirements, then in any subsequent dispute, if it was caught by the PWA then the Courts can make negative inferences (ie without evidence) against the person who ignored it.

[George]

There shouldn't be any major damage, consider that an old house has probably survived one or two earthquakes during its lifetime. Cosmetic cracking, especially to plaster is much more likely to happen. You may be able to claim for redecoration work, but I'd have thought that would only be for the cost to repair to cracks, which is quite minor really.

 

Although unpleasant, construction does happen. If it is causing a nuisance, environmental health to limit working hours may be a better bet. But they'll still need to do the work sometime.

[Alan Ambrose]

Suggest a quick solicitor’s letter saying that you will hold them liable for any damage. Note the lack of pw agreement, seismometer etc and anything else you or the lawyer can think of. May be work getting a surveyor around pronto to record the state of your structure before and after, together with note of potential expected and approximate damage amount. At that point they move from potentially negligent to potentially grossly negligent. You’ll want to do this pronto too if you”re concerned.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Alan Ambrose

[saveasteading]

16 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

They do so -in part-  to protect themselves from unfounded claims from neighbouring properties. 

A good point. Piling companies usually know what they are doing.

sIt's probably  going to be alright.

 

When we had piling operations, usually with the least bangy method, there was usually a complaint from neighbours about all the cracks that were appearing. 

None became claims. I had photos from 2 weeks earlier.

 

I think most were genuinely concerned and they saw pre-existing cracks for the first time, or were just nervous.

One I think was a chancer but was hoping for some cash or free decoration.

 

I wouldn't get legal. Photos and other records are free.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Residential build]

6 hours ago, saveasteading said:

A good point. Piling companies usually know what they are doing.

sIt's probably  going to be alright.

 

When we had piling operations, usually with the least bangy method, there was usually a complaint from neighbours about all the cracks that were appearing. 

None became claims. I had photos from 2 weeks earlier.

 

I think most were genuinely concerned and they saw pre-existing cracks for the first time, or were just nervous.

One I think was a chancer but was hoping for some cash or free decoration.

 

I wouldn't get legal. Photos and other records are free.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We’re not trying anything on and I’m not trying to get the site shut down, we’re pleased it’s being developed as has been derelict for years. But piling this close to our home and the associated vibrations are alarming. So I’m just trying to understand if the developer is taking all the precautions he should be to prevent damage to us and if there is anything further I can or should be doing. And where we stand if we do start to notice damage occurring. English isn’t the developers first language, so it’s also quite difficult to have a complete conversation and my Latvian is rubbish! I have taken lots of photos and I’ve also pointed out any existing cosmetic cracks we do have to the developer, so he understands we’re not trying anything on. 

[saveasteading]

42 minutes ago, Residential build said:

and my Latvian is rubbish

After my last post it occurred to me that they should have spoken to you in advance. Latvian wouldn't have helped, but a note through the door would have been polite. I didn't mean to imply you were trying anything on, but to confirm I know it must be a worry but it is usually alright.

Did you get pictures?

[Residential build]

On 27/10/2023 at 17:43, saveasteading said:

After my last post it occurred to me that they should have spoken to you in advance. Latvian wouldn't have helped, but a note through the door would have been polite. I didn't mean to imply you were trying anything on, but to confirm I know it must be a worry but it is usually alright.

Did you get pictures?

Thank you. Yes we have lots of pictures and lots of videos of cups with liquid in to show the level of vibrations. However because we had no warning (I suspect intentionally) and our home is quite a complex structure of different materials (Sandstone & Lime

mortar, some brick and half tile hung externally) and the shape internally has many different joins), it’s been difficult to record everything. Inevitability, we’re finding cracks that we hadn’t spotted before. So far nothing we can’t just suck up, but we’re obviously fearful there is damage occurring to structure we can’t see. Particularly when they hit the bed of Sandstone beneath the properties repeatedly! Thanks for your feedback though 👍

[ToughButterCup]

On 27/10/2023 at 17:43, saveasteading said:

..., but a note through the door would have been polite. ...

 

Lets ask the NHBC to add a section to their Building Standards 2024 shall we: 

 

Effective Communication : Customers   and then a similar section on

How not to answer the phone politely

[Gus Potter]

On 26/10/2023 at 10:51, Residential build said:

Looking for some advice, a development of two new detached houses has started in the neighbouring plot to us.

Lots of good advise from folk on BH. Excuse the spelling and grammer.

 

Hypothetically if you came to me I would take a different approach. Yes I know we have the party wall act etc. But why focus on that as you main stay of arguement. The PWA( England) and the law in Scotland is not strong and has a lot of gaps that can be exploited, a weak spot is ground water, flows, head and flow paths.

 

Lets take a few steps back. You have an old house, the original part circa 100 years. I doubt it will be sitting on the sedimnetary bedrock (Greensand). In fact it surely can't be as you have an extension with 1.0m deep founds... I suspect that the extension found depth is driven by standard foundation rules from BC that applied at the time.  In other words your house and extension are sitting on a layer of different soil that is underlayen by Greensand. The soil you have under is proved so far to be adequate.

 

Now ask.. why are they next door piling down to the Greensand. I suspect it is because they want to put more load on the ground compared with the load your house is applying to the layers of soil above the Greensand and it is not working for them.. so they are piling.

 

Now as your house is probably "floating" on the softer layers above the green sand then you need to look at what could pose a risk later. Yes you have some vibrations but for me I would want to look very carefully at how they are going to drain the site next door and if that will change the level of the ground water that could result in damage to your house.

 

Now that sounds all a bit abstract.. but if you got me round I would hammer the developer for information on things like this and say.. your are being unsafe.. I'll report you to HSE and all the other bodies if you don't give me the information..that I need to execute my responsibility for public safety.

 

I do a bit of Claims work against say the NHBC and major developers. They are masters at deflecting, threaten legal action.. but when you hit them on structural safety.. they have no clothes!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan Ambrose]

Ah interesting points from Gus (as usual) - the larger picture. Maybe you can post up here the drawings from their planning application for interest and to give a clue about the necessity for piling.

 

In my book, not bothering to tell you about the piling (you will have seen planning detail though, no?) beforehand is majorly unneighbourly. Contractors that (apparently) don't speak enough English to talk to a concerned neighbour - and obviously didn't ask their boss / client to contact you - that's another couple of black marks. So, everything may be fine in the end, but it may not, and you've seen the warning signs already.

 

Worth the legal missive and the notification to the council - if only, to head off the next piece of potential nonsense headed your way. You still have a chance to modify their behaviour for the rest of the build. Do you  even know which legal entity is doing the piling and who their client is?