Posi joist worry

[Canski]

Morning all. My joists are going on this weekend but I noticed an issue with the hanger connection to the steel. The Chippy suggested getting some 12 mm ply to pack out the plate to the edge of the flange so I supplied some. Then I turn my back and he has fixed it to the front. Even so the face of the ply is still short of the flange. Then the hangers go on and there is no chance of fixing through the vertical nail holes. We have had a conversation about this and I am insisting that the other house is changed to pack out the plate to suit the joist length but I am left with the first house like this. The Chippy is insisting that Posi joists don’t need to be nailed vertically. What are others thoughts on this ? 

[nod]

That is really poor 

BC will pick that up 

I went out and bought a dozen deeper hangers for the two deep steels 

He also should trim the ends off Or add a block the Posi so that they sit plush 

With so few nails it a quick easy job to alter at this stage 

Edited October 8, 2023 by nod

[Canski]

Thanks Nod. I thought so.

 

I was getting the bullshit excuses from the chippy which really gets to me.

 

The joists should be solid at the ends

Where is their hanger fixing detail ?
The plate can't be bought forward because the hangers will be in front of the steel 🙄 ( yeah and)

I have always done it like this and never had a problem.😡

Which warranty provider are you using ? (As if it makes a difference)

 

In the end I said 'look we both know it's not right' either take them off or come up with a solution. 

 

You turn your back for a few minutes.

 

I have got them to pack out the other timbers to sit flush. 10 minutes work !  I asked him to try to nail the verticals and of course the timber splits. At this stage I think I will have to cut the top end off and force a timber into the gap prior to nailing. An unnecessary compromise. 

 

Bad Sunday at the office.

[nod]

Not good Nailing right on the end  won’t hold much I’ll snap a picture of the ones I’ve done 

[ProDave]

11 minutes ago, Canski said:

Thanks Nod. I thought so.

 

I was getting the bullshit excuses from the chippy which really gets to me.

 

The joists should be solid at the ends

Where is their hanger fixing detail ?
The plate can't be bought forward because the hangers will be in front of the steel 🙄 ( yeah and)

I have always done it like this and never had a problem.😡

Which warranty provider are you using ? (As if it makes a difference)

 

In the end I said 'look we both know it's not right' either take them off or come up with a solution. 

 

You turn your back for a few minutes.

 

I have got them to pack out the other timbers to sit flush. 10 minutes work !  I asked him to try to nail the verticals and of course the timber splits. At this stage I think I will have to cut the top end off and force a timber into the gap prior to nailing. An unnecessary compromise. 

 

Bad Sunday at the office.

 

I would halt all work by the guy until a solution is agreed.  And make it clear not just the other houses but THIS one to be corrected.

 

I am no structural engineer but I would not be happy with the entire weight of a posi joist and all that it is supported being supported on a total of 22 nails passing through a bit of plywood before they barely reach what they are supposed to be nailing into.

 

And isn't the top chord of the posi joist supposed to extend further and rest on the top of the steel?

 

There might be more wrong here than the joiners poor excuse at bodging it, the joists might be made wrong for the application.  I would be wanting the designer, SE, Architect or whoever did the design to look at it and for him to specify the resolution before any more work on these joists proceeds.

[Big Jimbo]

The wood within the web of the steel is simply not deep enough. It should be at least as deep as the web, and in an ideal world, extend a few mm beyond. The joist at 90 degrees would then be fully supported in the joist hanger.  Don't accept that crap work under any circumstances. If the wood in the web is not deep enough, and needs a packer to bring it out clear of the steel, ply would be fine, but I would expect it to be glued and screwed onto the timber behind, and specified by a structural engineer. No problem using packers, but they have to be done correctly. 

[markc]

Packing out behind hangers is not acceptable. Timber in the web should have been packed out or doubled to bring the face out flush with the flange or to meet the end of the posi if needed.

[Onoff]

Could this be because a) the steels are in the wrong position or b) the posi joists are slightly too short? I'd be looking at where the steels are to the drawings.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Onoff

[Canski]

The next solution offered is to prop the joists and remove the hangers then loosen all of the bolts and then slide another 2 Nr 12.5 mm ply strips behind the  plate (one above the steel bolts and one below) then retighten the bolts. This would put the plate back in the position it should have been.

14 minutes ago, ProDave said:

And isn't the top chord of the posi joist supposed to extend further and rest on the top of the steel?

Not according to the joist plans.

FF Joists- Posi-Joist Floor Layout - REV. E.pdf

[Canski]

5 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Could this be because a) the steels are in the wrong position or b) the posi joists are slightly too short? I'd be looking at where the steels are to the drawings.

No the steels are within 5 mm of where they should be.

[nod]

30 minutes ago, nod said:

Not good Nailing right on the end  won’t hold much I’ll snap a picture of the ones I’ve done 

 

[Canski]

13 minutes ago, markc said:

Packing out behind hangers is not acceptable. Timber in the web should have been packed out or doubled to bring the face out flush with the flange or to meet the end of the posi if needed.

I agree. If it had been me I would have put the steels in position and measured the pozi joist then packed the timbers to suit. Then again I am just a bricky and not qualified to think for the chippies.🤔

[ProDave]

8 minutes ago, Canski said:

The next solution offered is to prop the joists and remove the hangers then loosen all of the bolts and then slide another 2 Nr 12.5 mm ply strips behind the  plate (one above the steel bolts and one below) then retighten the bolts. This would put the plate back in the position it should have been.

Not according to the joist plans.

FF Joists- Posi-Joist Floor Layout - REV. E.pdf 282.72 kB · 0 downloads

Then the joist detail of PS1 does not look right to me.  the end hanging on the hanger off the steel I would expect the solid timber between top and bottom chord to go tight to the end not recessed as the plans show it.

 

And agree with others it is the infill timber on the steel joist that is wrong.

 

I am also very uneasy about a hanger that does not wrap over the top of the timber it is hanging from.

[joe90]

Crap job by your chippie, would worry me about what else he might do.

[Canski]

5 minutes ago, ProDave said:

6 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Then the joist detail of PS1 does not look right to me.  the end hanging on the hanger off the steel I would expect the solid timber between top and bottom chord to go tight to the end not recessed as the plans show it.

 

I agree. Seems like a poor design that I overlooked.

 

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

And agree with others it is the infill timber on the steel joist that is wrong.

Yep this is where the main problem lies

 

8 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I am also very uneasy about a hanger that does not wrap over the top of the timber it is hanging from.

Its not really possible when the steel is tight in the web 

[Canski]

2 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Crap job by your chippie, would worry me about what else he might do.

Yep I think I'm now going elsewhere for the roof. Both for supply and labour.

[Big Jimbo]

To be fair to the chippie. He is booked to do a job. Turns up, and this is the position he is in. He has tried to get over it, but just badly. It would have been better if he had said, mate that timber in the web ain't deep enough. We are going to have to sort that before we start hanging joists. 

For future reference, i always get posi joists over length for trimming. Even if You are using the metal web one's they will put on a trimmable end if you ask them.

[Canski]

1 minute ago, Big Jimbo said:

To be fair to the chippie. He is booked to do a job. Turns up, and this is the position he is in. He has tried to get over it, but just badly. It would have been better if he had said, mate that timber in the web ain't deep enough. We are going to have to sort that before we start hanging joists. 

 

Yep it seems like that but .... I had sent hime the joist drawings 2 weeks ago and also the sizes of the web of the steels. This is where he noted that the timbers would need packing out and suggested 12.5 mm ply to do this. He said he was going to place the ply behind the timber which seemed fine to me providing it was the full height of the timber. Then I turned my back !

[ProDave]

6 minutes ago, Canski said:

Yep it seems like that but .... I had sent hime the joist drawings 2 weeks ago and also the sizes of the web of the steels. This is where he noted that the timbers would need packing out and suggested 12.5 mm ply to do this. He said he was going to place the ply behind the timber which seemed fine to me providing it was the full height of the timber. Then I turned my back !

So I would not be paying him yet and telling him to come back and re do the job as you both agreed with the packing behind the timber in the joist and the additional work is at his expense.

[Canski]

23 minutes ago, ProDave said:

So I would not be paying him yet and telling him to come back and re do the job as you both agreed with the packing behind the timber in the joist and the additional work is at his expense.

That's what they are doing now. Thanks all for your comments. Sometimes its good to get a bit of confirmation to your thoughts.

[ProDave]

Thanks.  I am sure we would all love to see the pictures when re worked.

[Canski]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

Thanks.  I am sure we would all love to see the pictures when re worked.

[ProDave]

That is looking a whole lot better.

[joe90]

Soo much better and nails in every hole (which it should be) it’s a good job us build hubbers  keep an eye on what the trades (who should know better) are doing.

[Kelvin]

I had a similar problem. The excuse was they couldn’t get the nail gun in. They’d also missed all the bolts for the web packers.