Heat loss, and the result

[SimonD]

10 hours ago, Big Jimbo said:

So with 4 showers, i am going to be looking for a peak demand of 40L per min. Oh, for a decent water engineer. Going to reach out to another One today.

 

I would humbly suggest that you employ a water engineer that sits you down to have a proper think about the real world water demands and whether all the outlets are actually going to be used at once 😉 I know it's not what many want to hear on BH but the reality is that when you sit down to work out the real patterns in a house the concurrent demands are less than most people think. You've also got the pesky building regs and resultant design guidelines suggesting less water use per person.

 

I know I've said this before but when I designed my system I started off in the same trap. I thought I needed to supply 3 bathrooms concurrently blah blah.However, instead of looking at upgrading the mains supply and accumulator, hot water recirculation and so forth, I looked instead and reducing overall flow rates while retaining pressure so even with less than 30l/min peak flow I can supply all bathrooms and whatever outlets without anyone complaining - although my only complaint is that I feel the kitchen tap (which comes restricted to 6l/min as standard) doesn't fill my pots quite quickly enough when I'm in a hurry. Our current main drench shower is regulated to 6l/min and it works really well. This approach was in part inspired by comments made by @markocosic to a thread I started a while ago about a similar question. Just fundamentally changed how I looked at the problem.

 

You can also use 10mm pipe for toilets, basins, dishwasher, washing machine which also reduces impact on flow.

[Nickfromwales]

11 hours ago, Big Jimbo said:

So with 4 showers, i am going to be looking for a peak demand of 40L per min. Oh, for a decent water engineer. Going to reach out to another One today.

Just ask here, the rocket science is minimal   

[JohnMo]

@SimonD I started in the same place - wife demanding, we be able to run 3 showers at once, because it would be required.  The system I installed could just do that. Only time 3 showers have run at once is when I did the test. Since then only one shower at time, used, irrespective of how many people are in the house. 

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, JohnMo said:

@SimonD I started in the same place - wife demanding, we be able to run 3 showers at once, because it would be required.  The system I installed could just do that. Only time 3 showers have run at once is when I did the test. Since then only one shower at time, used, irrespective of how many people are in the house. 

 

7 minutes ago, SimonD said:

 

I would humbly suggest that you employ a water engineer that sits you down to have a proper think about the real world water demands and whether all the outlets are actually going to be used at once 😉 I know it's not what many want to hear on BH but the reality is that when you sit down to work out the real patterns in a house the concurrent demands are less than most people think. You've also got the pesky building regs and resultant design guidelines suggesting less water use per person.

 

I know I've said this before but when I designed my system I started off in the same trap. I thought I needed to supply 3 bathrooms concurrently blah blah.However, instead of looking at upgrading the mains supply and accumulator, hot water recirculation and so forth, I looked instead and reducing overall flow rates while retaining pressure so even with less than 30l/min peak flow I can supply all bathrooms and whatever outlets without anyone complaining - although my only complaint is that I feel the kitchen tap (which comes restricted to 6l/min as standard) doesn't fill my pots quite quickly enough when I'm in a hurry. Our current main drench shower is regulated to 6l/min and it works really well. This approach was in part inspired by comments made by @markocosic to a thread I started a while ago about a similar question. Just fundamentally changed how I looked at the problem.

 

You can also use 10mm pipe for toilets, basins, dishwasher, washing machine which also reduces impact on flow.

The biggest problem I encounter with self builders is either too much micromanagement of stuff that is really insignificant, or just a complete lack of investment in the most basic of forethought and M&E planning.  Seems one or the other tbh.

The micromanagers seem to lose sleep overthinking  / over engineering / worrying about stuff which has never caused them issue; up to them making the new home! 

I would install a medium sized accumulator without a seconds hesitation, as the uplift in the performance of the entire hot and cold system is remarkable. No dip in pressure and flow when a loo is flushed when a showers running etc, just night and day difference tbh for not much money. 

[JohnMo]

3 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

I would install a medium sized accumulator without a seconds hesitation,

We have a borehole and have the very thing upstream of the filter system.  

 

4 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

No dip in pressure and flow when a loo is flushed when a showers running etc, just night and day difference tbh for not much money. 

Couldn't agree more

[SteamyTea]

@Nickfromwales, @JohnMo

Are accumulators basically maintenance free, maybe not quite fit and forget, but close to it?

[JohnMo]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

@Nickfromwales, @JohnMo

Are accumulators basically maintenance free, maybe not quite fit and forget, but close to it?

Mines been in use for a couple of years, no issues - except to top up the air once a year, when the filter package is being serviced. Mine is outside in an insulated shed.

[Nickfromwales]

11 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

@Nickfromwales, @JohnMo

Are accumulators basically maintenance free, maybe not quite fit and forget, but close to it?

The bladders do wear out eventually, but are changeable in the decent units. TBH I have these in customers homes that I’ve installed over 15 years ago and they still have my mobile number, as do all my previous clients, so if there was a failure I can only assume they would be on the phone for support (as some had such bad pressure / flow that if the kitchen tap was running downstairs and you opened the basin tap upstairs, you’d hear air being sucked into the tap and zero water would come out). 
I demonstrate the accumulators to the clients by opening every tap in the house, simultaneously, and they just cannot believe it. Then I show then that the cold mains is isolated and then open that and it gets better again! 

[Nickfromwales]

Very few clients will bother with a maintenance program, so checking the pre-charge pressure annually often goes out the window…… and that’s when the bladder can pop and the vessel will rust from the inside out. Then the entire unit needs to be replaced.

[Dave Jones]

On 16/09/2023 at 08:13, Nickfromwales said:

The bladders do wear out eventually, but are changeable in the decent units. TBH I have these in customers homes that I’ve installed over 15 years ago and they still have my mobile number, as do all my previous clients, so if there was a failure I can only assume they would be on the phone for support (as some had such bad pressure / flow that if the kitchen tap was running downstairs and you opened the basin tap upstairs, you’d hear air being sucked into the tap and zero water would come out). 
I demonstrate the accumulators to the clients by opening every tap in the house, simultaneously, and they just cannot believe it. Then I show then that the cold mains is isolated and then open that and it gets better again! 

 

recommend any particular brand or make ?

[Thorfun]

On 15/09/2023 at 20:13, Nickfromwales said:

I would install a medium sized accumulator without a seconds hesitation, as the uplift in the performance of the entire hot and cold system is remarkable. No dip in pressure and flow when a loo is flushed when a showers running etc, just night and day difference tbh for not much money. 

I decided against one to start with as our toilets are flushed from the RWH tank so that shouldn’t affect showers etc. 

 

I guess if I find we have pressure issues we can fit one at a later date. 

[Nickfromwales]

3 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

 

recommend any particular brand or make ?

Bought this one for last clients job. Great product and price. 

 

https://www.anchorpumps.com/gws-challenger-300l-vertical-pressure-vessel

[Nickfromwales]

Beware cheaper offerings, as they are often not suitable for potable water / aren't WRAS approved.

[Dave Jones]

14 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Bought this one for last clients job. Great product and price. 

 

https://www.anchorpumps.com/gws-challenger-300l-vertical-pressure-vessel

 

does it not need a pump ?

[Big Jimbo]

25 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

 

does it not need a pump ?

No. internal bladder provides the boost untill the incoming pressure equals the outgoing pressure. Then it re-charges via the water mains.

[SteamyTea]

6 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

does it not need a pump

P/V=C

That is pressure divided by volume is constant.

So it pressurises up to the maximum pressure the mains supplies, while filling up.

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

11 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

 

does it not need a pump ?

Nope!

 

5 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

P/V=C

My sincere apologies. The house was burgled last night and the only thing the bastards took was my beloved scientific calculator. "What are the odds?", I said..... Given current market value I have set the reward for its immediate and safe return at £8.99 (or £6.99 if you have a Tesco Clubcard).

 

These take the network pressure and 'lend' it to you, for the grand sum of FOC. Peak times for you to harvest said free energy are around 3-4AM plus some sporadic pockets during the daytime, and the name for this is "stored energy", the fact you borrow it each day is what makes this a great solution.

No pumps, no maintenance (other than annual check of pre-charge pressure and occasional top up), and no electrical / other consumption seen by you, the user. Happy days.

 

A survey of your max peak pressure per 24hrs is essential, achieved by connecting a pressure gauge with a double-check NRV on it to capture the peak reading, so you can correctly size the vessel and set the correct pre-charge pressure (so it actually fills with water). 

 

[Sparrowhawk]

On 15/09/2023 at 20:01, SimonD said:

Our current main drench shower is regulated to 6l/min and it works really well.

Which shower are you using, and at what input pressure?

[SteamyTea]

9 hours ago, Sparrowhawk said:

and at what input pressure

Will be at atmospheric pressure when it leaves the shower head.

[Sparrowhawk]

20 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Will be at atmospheric pressure when it leaves the shower head.

Well sure, but the feel of 6l/min coming out of a shower head at 3-4 bar is going to be different to the feel at 1-1.5 bar.

 

I'm having a job putting "drench" and "6l/min" together in the same sentence so keen to hear more as I'd like to cut our water usage.

[SimonD]

On 19/09/2023 at 08:57, Sparrowhawk said:

Which shower are you using, and at what input pressure?

 

It's a Mira shower. I can't remember the model but it looks similar to the Atom on the website. Pressure is a smidgen over 3bar dynamic.