Desktop Phase 1 - Soiling myself ?!?

[Ed_MK]

IT's OK

I am not literally doing that ...

 

But I almost have everything ready to submit for planning and the last thing i was asked for is a desktop/phase1/soil survey ?

And i have been trying 

 

I have contacted several companies .

 

a) Some said they would get back to me ...but haven't

 

b)Some insisted i should buy a "walkover" (it's a 40m x 10m plot in a meadow behind and was basically a "garden extension" for 30 years 

 

c)Some I contacted seemed to get hung up on the fact that i have been advised (to consider by the planners)  that 40yrs ago ...there was a landfill under 250m away,

should i be worried ? ..Well in the last 10 years they have allowed builds ..ON the landfill, next to the landfill and ..between my little plot and the landfill ...in fact there is very little 

green area left  ..I am talking ESTATES with hundreds of Houses, Maisonettes, Shops and a Community centre ...oh and a school!

 

all these surveys and fees and consultations and stuff are mounting up ...can anyone tell me the cheapest way to provide the council planners what they need here ?

I mean its great soil ...great drainage..it used to be a paddock for grazing ponies. the problem is officials only every see it on a map

 

...if they actually stood there ...I am sure they would think coughing up another £500 for some guy with 7 letters after his name in a hazmat suit to kneel down with tweezers and a test tube is as crackers as opening a lap dancing bar in Kabul!

 

 

 

 

[jamiehamy]

It might not work for you, but my planners put me in touch with their Environmental Officer. I contacted him, explained I was a self builder and had never done a Contaminated Land Survey (Desktop) and can he recommend companies who could complete this, which he did (hopefully yours will too and you can get some prices). I might have just got lucky however because the chap then mentioned that the house up the road had something similar and there was no reason I couldn't do it myself - and he could send me a copy of what was completed for that one and I could follow the same format. Like you, there was very little chance of any contamination. 

 

A few nights later, I produced my own desktop report and this was duly accepted. 

 

But I was just lucky. You'll have to pay your £500 quid to some guy in a Hazmat suit to quickly research historical maps, tell them it was used for grazing, that there is a landfill nearby and this shouldn't present a problem but you must advise during build if you find any evidence of contamination and then send you an invoice for the pleasure  

 

[Onoff]

Says here there's no specific qualification for doing such surveys:

 

http://www.stansted-environmental.com/home/our-services/contaminated-land/phase-1-contaminated-land-desktop-study/desktop-study-faqs

 

If you can do you homework ref local history using OS maps etc and pointing to other builds why not. I wonder if you could get a copy of such a local survey maybe from another self builder or Council records and plagiarise it?

[Triassic]

I've done these in the past, easily done, start by looking at old maps for the plot. Focus on the plot, an old landfill 250m away is of no consequence for your plot and should be a foot note in an appendices and no more !

 

More details here 

 

https://www.gateshead.gov.uk/DocumentLibrary/Building/Guides/Phase1LandContaminationAssessment.pdf

Edited August 29, 2017 by Triassic

[ToughButterCup]

The purpose of a Phase 1  study is to assess whether or not to do a more thorough survey. By another name, a cost reduction exercise.

You may find precisely nothing needs doing. Let's hope so. But why would you want to submit an application for a lead-soaked patch of made ground? Or landfill  that leeches cyanurates?

 

I am lucky enough to live on a heart-breakingly beautiful patch of land, that was filled with damson trees. On made ground. (Hear the warning bells "Made Ground") On a row of four workers cottage built to house the families who built the local canal. A tiny hamlet straight off a picture postcard.

Our Phase 1 survey found

• Weak made ground
• Glacial Till

So, we had a Phase 2 study done. Why?

How deep was the Made Ground on top of the  glacial till? Were there any other issues we needed to know about? 

 

As it turned out we had lead to deal with too. Not much, but lead is lead, and I don't want that in my lettuce.

 

10 hours ago, Ed_MK said:

[...]

all these surveys and fees and consultations and stuff are mounting up ...can anyone tell me the cheapest way to provide the council planners what they need here ?

I mean its great soil ...great drainage..it used to be a paddock for grazing ponies. the problem is officials only every see it on a map

...if they actually stood there ...I am sure they would think coughing up another £500 for some guy with 7 letters after his name in a hazmat suit to kneel down with tweezers and a test tube is as crackers as opening a lap dancing bar in Kabul!

 

Yes, I can. Get several quotes and do it. Just do it.

Here's what doing the soil survey 'did' for us....

• Enabled us to send two charlatan Would Drainage 'experts' packing when they tried to sell us a drainage system based on  an inadequate Percolation Test I knew exactly what was under the ground. Bastards.
• Helped us dismiss several Piling 'Experts' when they turned up chanting "£22 thousand pounds mate" while deriding  the relevance of soil surveys "Buuuut ah'll tell thee what meeert, 'ahve gorra contact as'll do yer wun fer next ter nowt". Bastards
• Took the wind out of the company we eventually used for piling when I told them we already had the  detailed Phase 1 and 2 reports along with a soil profile: the piling company wanted to charge a good deal more (because they needed their agency cut for their 'partner' company) Eventually we paid £6,500 for piles - most companies wanted at least £15k. Bastards.
• Told the ground workers exactly where to get off in terms of describing exactly where the water table is. Teeth sucking estimates about how dodgy it is 'roun' yer' Bastards
• Identified exactly where to put our soak away  Happy Chappie

A soil survey is a risk reduction strategy. It isn't foolproof. But it helps you plan, and it helps weed out the inevitable charlatans (bastards) that home-in on self builders.

 

Just do it.

Ian

 

 

 

[divorcingjack]

We had exactly the same issues with our plot - historical garden ground, potential  contaminated land nearby and planning doing their nut asking for all kinds of surveys etc. We ended up getting a local engineer to assess a variety of trial pits that we dug ourselves (saved in plant hire and labour time), and then I bothered the local council environmental health team for local historical records of recent land use. They were very comprehensive (and free!) - I tool all their info and the report from the engineer, put it all together with a load of pics from the library into a PDF "report" and planning accepted it and removed the condition. 

 

result! A few grand saved. It's worth ringing around the council departments as you might actually get someone helpful. Worth a shot! 

 

Good luck though, it can be a right pain. 

 

[divorcingjack]

Although Ian has a good point, if there is a chance of a risk. We knew there was no contamination nearby, we just needed to prove it to the council. 

[Ferdinand]

If there is little green area left, perhaps all the bats and badgers and hedgehogs are living in your little plot .

 

A Phase I is quite reasonable price-wise. It is when they ask for a Phase II that you need to worry.

 

I think here I would find several recommendations and ask for quotes for the phase I.

 

You need a focus on - at least - ruling out any landfill risk (think 250m should make you safe there), and making sure no one mentions gas percolation tests without a careful explanation. We had to do these on a larger site, but we were much closer than that. I is a bit of a trigger,  and tick-box cultures such as exist in Planning find it easier to require tests to be done rather than accept they are not necessary.

 

I think it would also be worth getting all the Ground Condi tion reports (and Planning Decisions conditioned to requite them) so you can demonstrate that there are places between you and the landfill where tests were not required. Should be an hour or two online.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by Ferdinand

[ToughButterCup]

23 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

[...]

making sure no one mentions gas percolation tests.

[...]

 

Mum's the word.

[Ed_MK]

7 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

If there is little green area left, perhaps all the bats and badgers and hedgehogs are living in your little plot .

 

A Phase I is quite reasonable price-wise. It is when they ask for a Phase II that you need to worry.

 

I think here I would find several recommendations and ask for quotes for the phase I.

 

You need a focus on - at least - ruling out any landfill risk (think 250m should make you safe there), and making sure no one mentions gas percolation tests without a careful explanation. We had to do these on a larger site, but we were much closer than that. I is a bit of a trigger,  and tick-box cultures such as exist in Planning find it easier to require tests to be done rather than accept they are not necessary.

 

I think it would also be worth getting all the Ground Condi tion reports (and Planning Decisions conditioned to requite them) so you can demonstrate that there are places between you and the landfill where tests were not required. Should be an hour or two online.

 

Ferdinand

 

thanks 

 

where should I look for other buildings data please...?

[Triassic]

Search for your local,planning authority by name along with 'planning application' and you should come up with a page like this

 

http://applications.southlakeland.gov.uk/planningapplications/welcome.asp

 

you can use the advanced search facility to find local planning applications, open each of these up and you should find the planning application documents attached.

[Ferdinand]

15 hours ago, Ed_MK said:

thanks 

 

where should I look for other buildings data please...?

 

It's on your LPA website - which is likely to be a Council or Local Park authority. They have somewhat varying search facilities.

 

It will come under something like "Search all Planing Applications", and you can go via  a text box search specifying Road, Post Town, Postcode etc, or get into the Map Search and find your area, which should have some way of identifying planning applications. There should be some form of tickboxes which let you specify the data to be displayed such as eg Planning Records, Planning Records 2017 etc.

 

Once you have the area highlighted there should be details displayed when you mouseover or click.

 

That should give you a link to various Planning Applications, which you bring up, or in a new tab/windows by CTRL-CLICK or RightCLICK.

 

Then you read those looking for Ground Conditions Reports or similar, Decision Notices, and Officers' Reports - the last are the summary by the Planning Officer.

Ferdinand

 

[Triassic]

On 28/08/2017 at 20:44, Ed_MK said:

But I almost have everything ready to submit for planning and the last thing i was asked for is a desktop/phase1/soil survey ?

To my mind these are two different things, the desktop/phase 1 is a historical review of the site looking at and for possible contamination that might affect human health or the structural integrity of any future foundations/building. The second is a soil survey looking at the geotechnical structure of the soil. Might be worth clarifying which is it the planner wants? He might want both!

[Ed_MK]

that is a fair point!

let me get the exact wording

and report back

 thanks 

[Ed_MK]

Well I have cut and pasted below what i think are the relevant sections of my Pre-app advice.

 

* the first one is dealing with "constraints"

* the second mentions a "desktop study" phase 1 ...

* the third is a list of what I need to submit ...it does not mention a phase 1 desktop study on soil??
but I took it from the previous entry on the pre-app advise that it would be "advised"

 

 

what do you guys think ?

 

 

 

 

[PeterW]

Third list is a standard planning list from that council. 

 

Heritage site in the top constraint would worry me - what's listed in the EH register in the area ..?

[Ferdinand]

If they have not asked for one, I would think twice about submitting the soil survey, but perhaps might consider a para in the Planning Statement which would serve to demonstrate that one is not necessary.

 

Planning permission is formally not precedent forming, and pre-app advice is just an Officer's opinion anyway, so just because it has been mentioned before does not mean it is relevant now.

 

I would address the trees FIRST. Very important. Know what trees you want still there and make sure that that is the position before you submit anything, once you are fairly sure you will do so. Cannot overemphasise this.

 

I might also check exactly where the 250m landfill boundary line is, and if it is across a corner of the plot make the application site a little smaller excluding that part if feasible. Then make the bald statement that the application site is outside the landfill whatever zone. I have never done that so I am not sure if it would work as a tactic to head off a soil survey at the pass.

 

Might the same tactic work with the Heritage Site thing?

 

Not sure why they want a material schedule. What is that, anyway?

Edited September 1, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Ed_MK]

 

7 hours ago, PeterW said:

Third list is a standard planning list from that council. 

 

Heritage site in the top constraint would worry me - what's listed in the EH register in the area ..?

 

Thanks Peter,

I know the EH thing relates to the Village conservation area, this was discussed at the meeting and prior also.

 

The village itself is VERY old ....well certainly the church is 700+ and includes artwork on walls inside dating from this time..it is a beautiful building,

surrounding this is what i would term the OLD village itself ...which probably comprises houses dating from 1600-1800 mainly cottage style with a few later older buildings.

 

But around this was built in the 70/80's houses which are in the style of post war and even later ...some could describe them as large "wimpey style" even, and of course after this in recent 10 years there is an enormous construction which connects the village seamlessly to the larger urban mix ...2000-2010 and later properties ...you can imagine ..sloping rooves, large glass frontage ..very modern.

 

All these properties are FAR closer to the Old Village center than my land, and I presume that is why it was a favourable application ...Also my design is called a "Heritage style" timber frame ....which is far more in keeping with the village "look" than properties far closer.

 

It is a fact that the land does lie RIGHT on the border of the conservation area.., and is described as once belonging to the curtiledge of my in-laws house (which is a 1970 style)
but it is VERY sheltered by its position and cannot be seen at all.

 

I know one of the neighbours FAR closer had issues when planning an extension ....but it was due to the bloody ENORMOUS trees they have on their land...I think they were described as "ancient" and these are even marked on plans as TPO's? 

 

But luckily for me the oldest tree i have is a threadbare old cypress that was planted in the 90's and is only about 10 foot tall 

(phew)

[Ed_MK]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand said:

If they have not asked for one, I would think twice about submitting the soil survey, but perhaps might consider a para in the Planning Statement which would serve to demonstrate that one is not necessary.

 

Planning permission is formally not precedent forming, and pre-app advice is just an Officer's opinion anyway, so just because it has been mentioned before does not mean it is relevant now.

 

I would address the trees FIRST. Very important. Know what trees you want still there and make sure that that is the position before you submit anything, once you are fairly sure you will do so. Cannot overemphasise this.

 

I might also check exactly where the 250m landfill boundary line is, and if it is across a corner of the plot make the application site a little smaller excluding that part if feasible. Then make the bald statement that the application site is outside the landfill whatever zone. I have never done that so I am not sure if it would work as a tactic to head off a soil survey at the pass.

 

Might the same tactic work with the Heritage Site thing?

 

Not sure why they want a material schedule. What is that, anyway?

 

 

Hi Ferdinand ...Well as you spoke the Tree Survey dropped into my inbox!

IT was done a few weeks ago and is a great hulking 50 page thing !

 

The Tree Expert that came said he could "see no issues with the planning regarding trees"

As i don't really have ANY trees on the land ....as it was a meadow (or the last bit of one)

and the on;y trees to consider are the hawthorn hedge that runs directly outside the length of my property

(basically screening the road) I don't want to take any out ..as i like the privacy ...but of course i have to be careful of root damage

and because of this we have already "narrowed" the building across that side.

 

Of course 2 or 3 of them will have to be removed to facilitate the road access ..but the visiting planning officers seemed acceptant to this ...especially as without an access the rest of the build becomes ...well....non-workable.

 

Regarding landfil, from what i can gather it ceased use in the late 70's early 80's and through the 90's the new residents remember the land had "pipes" in it ...presumably vents?

during this time there was no building on it ...and it was basically what you could term a village "green" ...it has now been heavily developed on, near and around..

 

Whilst there is still technically a "green" it also now surrounded by school, community centre, houses, paths etc etc ..all technically on top of the old landfill.

Regarding distance ..i suppose my land is about 300-400m from the "green" which you could define as the old landfill centre.....but certainly the edge (looking at it on maps i have seen) would be closer than 250m to my land.

 

I have asked about the term "material schedule"

and apparently it is a turn of phrase that means NOTHING to do with timing.

 

It's basically a list of exterior materials ....(as advised by Potton) ..Roof Tile, Brickwork. Cladding, Render, External Pipework ...etc etc ..mainly to do with "look" I am told