Vaillant ashp (my battle with).

[BotusBuild]

I've just sent Zoot a link to an article on the basics of how to setup the heating on the Vaillant controller (the black box) found on the FB Vaillant group. 

 

Also, I've given Zoot the spec of cable (blue) needed to link the black box (in red) to the white box. (In yellow). Its 0.75mm twinflex as stated earlier.

 

FYI: I'm in the process of moving mine once my plumbing is sorted out. I suspect that Zoot's black and white box are also this close to each other.

 

Go for it Zoot! 😀

Edited Monday at 20:22 by BotusBuild
Clarified basic setting for heating

[Dillsue]

26 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

So I am resolutely STUCK for understanding here, because the consensus is persuading me to dial in a Setback AND ALSO have he heating set to permanently ON.

I don't know the vailant controller but it likely you have the following options-

 

Permantly ON with a fixed but adjustable flow temp. This allows you to set what ever temperature you want for the water leaving the heat pump. The heat pump will run continuously producing water at the temp you set. As an example you could set the heat pump to heat the water to 35 degrees and it would produce water at this temp 24/7.

 

Timed heating blocks with adjustable room temps for each timed block. This sounds like how you've been using it with a heating block in the morning and a second block in the evening. In between these blocks your heating is off during the day and overnighf. Add a timed heating block between the morning and evening blocks and between the evening and morning blocks but set the temperature 2 degrees lower than that set in your morning and evening blocks. This will leave your system heating 24/7 but with a 2 degree set back during the day and overnight. This leaving the system ON with set back

 

You don't need a thermostatic valve to keep your bedroom cool as you can likely use one of the valves currently on the radiator. If your system was set up correctly there should be a valve either end of the radiator. One should have a cap that stops you easily adjusting it and this was used to balance the flow through each radiator.....you shouldn't alter this valve. The other valve should have a knob on it that allows you to open and close it. Close this fully then open it a quarter of a turn and see how warm the room gets at night. Open the valve to get the rad warmer or close it to cool the rad but only change it by 1/8 turn at a time. Most people would want the room heated but cool enough to sleep so tweak it to suit what you want.

[-rick-]

21 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Why is there an Auto/ Timer setting at all then, if y'all are telling me that this way (which I have this new HP set like) is completely wrong for a HP to run like this/ do it completely differently y'all say etc.

 

Firstly, using the timer is not wrong as such, it comes down to HOW you use it. In your particular building, using the timer to stop the heatpump working for long periods is the issue. It's ok to use the timer to set a modest setback, ie, 2C. So most of the time you run at say 18C but overnight set it to 16C. But using the timer to say you want 20C for 2 hours and then 10C for the rest of the time just won't deliver the result you expect. This partly due to the way the heatpump works and partly due to your building.

 

21 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I mean, if this Auto/ Timer setting, is one out of three options, as to how you can basically set it........ then there must be some logic, to set it, using the Auto/ Timer way.

 

I would guess that most people with heatpumps do use the timer. I can't tell you how to do it but it will be possible through the menus. You want to have a setback to setting the timer makes sense.

 

In my mind, first step is to get your warmer, second step is to optimise things so your system works in the most efficient and comfortable way for you. First step can be done by just setting to ON*, second step might need the timer to do but in a way theres no point learning to use the timer if you can't get warmer with the thing just set to ON.

 

* I do think the thermostat needs sorting first.

 

 

[sharpener]

22 minutes ago, -rick- said:

First step can be done by just setting to ON*, second step might need the timer to do but in a way theres no point learning to use the timer if you can't get warmer with the thing just set to ON.

 

ON is actually called Manual, see upthread.

 

When you are trying to set up the setback schedule the controller mode has to be set to Normal. If it is set to Eco the HP will be off during the setback periods. Yes it is complicated, the phone app is better but there are things you can't adjust with it and this is one of them.

 

To make things worse there are two other things called Eco, one is the power level used to heat the hot water cylinder, I can't remember the other...

[-rick-]

1 minute ago, sharpener said:

Yes it is complicated, 

 

One of the reasons why it may be worth skipping all these to start with and just set to manual. Come back to more complicated stuff once it's shown that the building can indeed be warmed.

 

I'm not familiar with Valliant so can't really help zoot with specifics on the controller.

[Nickfromwales]

11 hours ago, zoothorn said:

@-rick-

 

Ok let me just try to understand this. I need to boil it right down, to incrimental steps now. I'm almost completely deluged. It's been getting muddier, not clearer, today for me.

 

Why is there an Auto/ Timer setting at all then, if y'all are telling me that this way (which I have this new HP set like) is completely wrong for a HP to run like this/ do it completely differently y'all say etc.

 

I mean, if this Auto/ Timer setting, is one out of three options, as to how you can basically set it........ then there must be some logic, to set it, using the Auto/ Timer way.

 

Who would set it like so?? There must be, & I'd surmise, therefore 1/3rd of those who have these HP's, who have it set to Auto/ Timer.
 

And so why, shouldn't that include me-?

 

Thanks, Zoot

 

Ok. I mentioned it being on constant as I suggested fitting the battery powered room thermostat, which you’ve not gone with.

 

Not a problem, your choice.

 

If you’d have gone for the type of thermostat like I have then the Vaillant controller would have become the slave unit and the battery powered stat would have taken control of the time and temp.

 

In this situation the auto/timer functions would have been in place on the new unit.

 

As you still only have the Vaillant one, that you seem prepared to move if needed(?), then yes you’d be going to the auto/timer function on that and not ON constant.

 

So now, you must get to grips with how that auto/timer gets programmed and what times and temps you want to trial run.

 

For completeness, the auto/timer setting is going to choose times for comfort and times for setback. This means essentially your house will heat on demand 24/7 to try to achieve the temps that you’ve set during the times you’ve asked it to be at that temp. 
 

07:00 - 19.5°

 

09:00 - 17.5° (daytime setback)

 

18:00 - 19.5°

22:00 - 15° (nighttime setback)

 

(I’d go 16° for nighttime setback but it’s your house so you’ll have to decide how high or low nighttime setback temp is, by trial and error).

 

So, if you’d look at the above “heating schedule” you’ll see the heating doesn’t go ON > OFF so to speak peak, just instead it just changes the target temp for different times of the day.

 

Let’s see if you grasp that and then we can look at you then setting this schedule up.

 

Thanks to the other posts above folks, that’s all very helpful.
 

The info for cable type and so on and the links to tutorials for setting the programmer are welcomed with open arms!

 

@zoothorn, does my above now make sense?

 

Next item:

 

You mention moving the unit to the kitchen, that is a big “NO”, as that room has big temp swings.

 

If you’d look move it, the controller needs to go in the living room or other living space like the dining room.

 

It depends upon where you loiter during the day, as that’s where I’d locate it so it’s looking after the space you use on the day.
 

The other rads will amble on in the other rooms, so you can just ignore those and let them all simply do their own thing. These will simply be contributing to the house simply staying at a balanced ambient.

 

As you get the house settled to these new temps, so it’s never getting as cold as the current 12°C setback, you’ll not be having the amount of moisture and humidity to deal with anymore.

 

You'll start to see the house just generally feeling ‘nicer’ and when it’s not getting cold it’ll start to ‘dry out’. Like my house.

 

Once it’s routinely heated (to some degree) it’ll get better each day, and you can change times and temps every couple of days as you see fit, eg tweaking the heating schedule until you get the sweet spot of times / temps dialled in. 

[zoothorn]

16 hours ago, BotusBuild said:

I've just sent Zoot a link to an article on the basics of how to setup the heating on the Vaillant controller (the black box) found on the FB Vaillant group. 

 

Also, I've given Zoot the spec of cable (blue) needed to link the black box (in red) to the white box. (In yellow). Its 0.75mm twinflex as stated earlier.

 

FYI: I'm in the process of moving mine once my plumbing is sorted out. I suspect that Zoot's black and white box are also this close to each other.

 

Go for it Zoot! 😀

Hi BB,

 

much appreciate the PM & this photo. The bigger interface box is exactly like mine.. but the controller-thermostat small black box, isn't like mine. Yours here is the VRC720.

 

Mine is the VRC700, just an older white model. It would've been ideal if I -did- have this newer one. But engineer informed me it was only the HP & the hydraulic unit to be swapped out (last time I ever need to say those 2 dreaded words!). I can't complain. I did ask engineer if newer black one could be fitted? No.

 

But basically, it's still the same though. @-rick- No the engineer -was- correct, he said 240v flying around the interface box, but only 20v flying around the small controller-thermostat box. Meaning in theory, I could by 30m of twin-core flex, & reposition this thermostat. Which he also agreed was feasable. But quite a job even so, for me.

 

Anyway, I still need to understand the difference between this ON setting y'all are advising me to set it to, & the Auto/ Timer.

 

I'm ploughing through the replies since yesterday ( that might sound ungrateful- not at all, very welcome: but they are stacking up adding to Zoot's homework!).

 

Let me try & re-read the operating of it replies, & see if something clicks today.
 

[[ I can of course 'just set it to how you want me to' but I am attempting to understand the design principle, first. ]]
 

Thanks, Zoot

[sharpener]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

But basically, it's still the same though. @-rick- No the engineer -was- correct, he said 240v flying around the interface box, but only 20v flying around the small controller-thermostat box. Meaning in theory, I could by 30m of twin-core flex, & reposition this thermostat. Which he also agreed was feasable. But quite a job even so, for me.

 

Anyway, I still need to understand the difference between this ON setting y'all are advising me to set it to, & the Auto/ Timer.

 

The Vaillant FB forum is quite useful as well https://www.facebook.com/groups/488794632317506/?sorting_setting=RECENT_ACTIVITY.

 

I see where my confusion about the 240 came from, the engineer is correct, it is present in the VWZ AI interface unit.

 

The mode you want is defo called Time-controlled on the VR720. I think it is similar on the VR700, the differences are mainly cosmetic. It is only when you select Time-controlled that the Weekly Schedule option appears in the menu, this is where you set up the setback times as per @Nickfromwales' last post.

 

Moving the VRC700 is a feasible DIY job but I would make sure you are happy setting up the schedule first.

[-rick-]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

But basically, it's still the same though. @-rick- No the engineer -was- correct, he said 240v flying around the interface box, but only 20v flying around the small controller-thermostat box. Meaning in theory, I could by 30m of twin-core flex, & reposition this thermostat. Which he also agreed was feasable. But quite a job even so, for me.

 

Yes, BB's clarification helped and definitely seems doable, but if that seems too much there are wireless options to explore.

 

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

I'm ploughing through the replies since yesterday ( that might sound ungrateful- not at all, very welcome: but they are stacking up adding to Zoot's homework!).

 

Not at all, take your time. I can't speak for others but my goal in participating here is to help you get to the point where you are not cold after summer. The time between now and then is for exploring, learning about the system and trying things.

 

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

[[ I can of course 'just set it to how you want me to' but I am attempting to understand the design principle, first. ]]

 

Good principle and I think it will click for you soon. But if after some more back and forth it's still not clicking then you might find just trying to do what we suggest might help clarify things. Learn through doing rather than studying.

[BotusBuild]

Hi Zoot,

If you follow the directions in that link I sent you on PM, you will be using the Timer setting (not the constant ON), and you will also have setup the daytime temperature and the setback temperature as is being suggested. As per my PM, take the time to read that article, then set aside an hour or so to make the changes.

 

We are all hoping that your understanding gets you to the point of being able to decide to the make the changes. We do all believe it will help in the next cold season.

 

🤞

[zoothorn]

4 hours ago, BotusBuild said:

Hi Zoot,

If you follow the directions in that link I sent you on PM, you will be using the Timer setting (not the constant ON), and you will also have setup the daytime temperature and the setback temperature as is being suggested. As per my PM, take the time to read that article, then set aside an hour or so to make the changes.

 

We are all hoping that your understanding gets you to the point of being able to decide to the make the changes. We do all believe it will help in the next cold season.

 

🤞

Hi BB,

 

yup thanks for reminding me about that link tucked away in PM's.. will open it up tomorrow.

 

Tbh there was rather a huge spanner in the works, for me, a few pages back when the talk was of £700 bills, rather than £70, in order to bet the results you guys are wanting.

 

Bottom line is expenditure, after all. I did mention I've got  used to listening to my Lp's seeing my breath.. with hottie on & sat upon my mini leccyB. So I really am up against it with the   Rapidly rising cost of electric.

 

If & this is a big if.. I could get some solar panels up, then the HP 'ON' idea, becomes somewhat more feasable. Maybe I need to explore this avenue. I've one end of my cottage South facing (albeit an eaves end, so no roof position options). I'll measure up my max potential area. 

 
Big Thanks all, Zoot
 

 

 

[Dillsue]

Unless you've got a sizeable solar array and batteries, solar wont generate much electric in the winter when you need the electric the most to run the heat pump.

 

You're probably better spending your money on sorting out the heating system you've already got to get the lowest running cost you can. Once you've done that you can choose how much or little you heat the place.

[Nickfromwales]

@zoothorn, have you explored other grants, like external wall insulation, solar PV and batteries?

 

Lots online about grants or zero interest loans for renewables and energy efficiency upgrades.

 

Solar PV outputs <10% of the size of the array in winter, so using an oversized solar PV array in an attempt to provide heating is a non starter.
 

Plus you’d then be haemorrhaging excess all summer with nothing to do with it other than get the paid export. If it’s available through grant, it’s a no brainer though.

 

Maybe an option for harvesting positive funds into the winter heating coffers in the summer, to offset your anticipated heating bill, but maths need doing.

[Dillsue]

9 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

@zoothorn, 

Plus you’d then be haemorrhaging excess all summer with nothing to do with it other than get the paid export.

Any excess PV goes to power your neighbours and likely reduces their fossil fuel demand so a lot more to use surplus PV for other than generating export income. A definite meaningful use for it especially if it's tax payer funded via grants/subsidies

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, Dillsue said:

Any excess PV goes to power your neighbours and likely reduces their fossil fuel demand so a lot more to use surplus PV for other than generating export income. A definite meaningful use for it especially if it's tax payer funded via grants/subsidies

Once it leaves via your meter it’s recorded, and is your own generation that’s being paid for by the supplier.
 

The neighbour consumes it via their meter, so they purchase it from the supplier.

 

Agree this bit is good for the environment etc, but it should be less of a burden on the public coffers and far more heavily subsidised by the grossly profit-heavy, privatised industry. 
 

One for another thread, so we don’t use up Zoot’s remaining 5% capacity! 

[-rick-]

Hi @zoothorn

 

It's obvious you are on a budget that is tighter than most. But you are also talking about spending what are large amounts of money on things like new concrete floors and solar arrays. So if you have some savings but not income then you've got to think whether spending the savings on improvements pays for itself.

 

Without knowing the details, my gut says you might be better off keeping the savings and putting the interest you earn towards higher energy bills, than spending the savings on solar or a new concrete floor. Or at the least you should give it a go so you can really compare costs.

 

If you've seen offers of 'free' or heavily discounted solar then do be very careful, those often come with strings attached and may not be a good a deal as you might think. As @Nickfromwales says if you can get a government funded install for free or very low cost then that may well be worth it but other offers not so much.

 

The other thing about solar is your roof needs to be in good condition. I guess your property was re-roofed in the 80s so might be all good but if it's showing signs of age you wouldn't want to put solar on it without first fixing the roof (or doing a re-roof and solar at the same time).

[zoothorn]

@BotusBuild Ive just had another glitch with the HW not doing it's thing. Called Vaillant, chap queried whether my VRC700 (left in place from prior HP system) should be a VRC 720 newer black job. Like your pic.

 

So 3x employees now concur with this query. Vaillant refusing to update it though.

 

I'm trying to persuade them though, to please pls pls at least just send me a VRC 720. I then pay an installer to fit it. They'll call back 48 hrs yes or no. If no.. I do see just the black box £50 on ebay.

 

OR maybe even fit it myself. So BB, how feasible is this to do?
 

I already know it's only 20v, & I have fitted an electric shower myself (even fully rebuilt a 100w fender Twin Reverb complicated amp- 450v flying round that monster!). I'd obviously power down the whole thing: this has two big yellow/ red plastic switches. Kinda 'mother switches'. And also can put all house power off too, to be super-sure.

 

Thanks Zoot

[sharpener]

27 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

@BotusBuild Ive just had another glitch with the HW not doing it's thing. Called Vaillant, chap queried whether my VRC700 (left in place from prior HP stystem) shouldn't be a VRC 720 newer black job. Like your pic.

 

So 3x employees now concur with this query. Vaillant refusing to update it though.

 

I'm trying to persuade them though, to please pls pls at least just send me a VRC 720. I then pay an installer to fit it. They'll call back 48 hrs yes or no. If no.. I do see just the black box £50 on ebay.

 

OR maybe even fit it myself. So BB, how feasable is this to do?
 

I already know it's only 20v, & I have fitted an electric shower myself (even fully rebuilt a 100w fender Twin Reverb complicated amp- 450v flying round that monster!). I'd obviously power down the whole thing: this has two big yellow/ red plastic switches. Kinda 'mother switches'. And also can put all house power off too, to be super-sure.

 

Thanks Zoot

 

AIUI the (white) VRC700 is compatible with current production HP units and probably capable of everything you need.

 

So I would not count on a VRC720 upgrade being the fix to whatever is wrong with your HW (which you do not describe in detail), though it is perfectly feasible to DIY involving only low voltage wiring as it does.

 

Also if you are going to upgrade then worth considering a switch to the wireless version while you are at it to get the internal temp sensor in a more sensible place. However this as already noted will involve fitting a wireless receiver and a new OAT sensor as well. This will be a considerable extra cost and you might struggle to recommission the new setup without paying for professional help. Then I would also recommend getting the internet interface installed so you can control the whole system from your smart phone which for everyday things is much easier to do. 

 

Unfortunately finding someone to do all this might not be easy, from the Vaillant FB forum it seems installers do not like working on systems they did not originally install as there is so much scope for things to go wrong.

 

So in summary my recommendation would be to get the current setup working properly first. Have you looked at the Heat Geek map to see if there is someone on their register near you? They seem to be quite highly regarded though I have no personal experience.

 

 

 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by sharpener

[Nickfromwales]

28 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

@BotusBuild Ive just had another glitch with the HW not doing it's thing. Called Vaillant, chap queried whether my VRC700 (left in place from prior HP system) should be a VRC 720 newer black job. Like your pic.

 

So 3x employees now concur with this query. Vaillant refusing to update it though.

 

I'm trying to persuade them though, to please pls pls at least just send me a VRC 720. I then pay an installer to fit it. They'll call back 48 hrs yes or no. If no.. I do see just the black box £50 on ebay.

 

OR maybe even fit it myself. So BB, how feasible is this to do?
 

I already know it's only 20v, & I have fitted an electric shower myself (even fully rebuilt a 100w fender Twin Reverb complicated amp- 450v flying round that monster!). I'd obviously power down the whole thing: this has two big yellow/ red plastic switches. Kinda 'mother switches'. And also can put all house power off too, to be super-sure.

 

Thanks Zoot

This is installer negligence / error. Tell them the system hasn't been left functionable, and demand that they send the proper unit out. Tell them you will agree to send the U/S unit back to them.

[Nickfromwales]

14 minutes ago, sharpener said:

Unfortunately finding someone to do all this might not be easy, from the Vaillant FB forum it seems installers do not like working on systems they did not originally install as there is so much scope for things to go wrong.

 

So in summary my recommendation would be to get the current setup working properly first. Have you looked at the Heat Geek map to see if there is someone on their register near you? They seem to be quite highly regarded though I have no personal experience.

These are all going to charge to attend, and as said not many installers will want to be left holding someone else's baby.