Beginning of the end for MCS?

[sharpener]

Now that Octopus have decided not to require MCS accreditation if you want to sell them your surplus PV 

 

 

do we think the same will happen to the requirement for MCS and heat pumps? Of course they are not involved directly in BUS except as an installer but I suspect they may have quite a lot of clout.

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by sharpener

[JohnMo]

I've applied let's see how it goes.

[Kelvin]

Yes is my view in the long run. Octopus are going to some length to try and get the install cost down to a more reasonable realistic amount. The problem is that they are just one company with a limited install capacity. 

[DougMLancs]

I think it will be decoupled from MCS during the grant phase. There are too few MCS installers and it’s pushing up prices and preventing uptake. Word on the grapevine (aka heating policy advisors like Richard Lowes on Twitter) is they’re going to do away with the 1m boundary rule to enable more installations to fall under PD. I heard the CEO of MCS, Ian Rippin, on Radio 4 yesterday. Turns out he doesn’t have PV or a heat pump at home?!? What kind of message that that give? 

[ProDave]

BUT just when you thought we might be on the way to easier and cheaper ASHP installs, THIS comes along  https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/news/heat-pump-defra-review

 

A different part of the same government now complaining they are too noisy for most urban settings with high density housing.

 

You can just see it in a few years "My boiler has broken down, I can't buy a new one, but neither can I fit an ASHP. Just what am i supposed to do?"

[JohnMo]

Just shows the disjointed thinking and message from a government playing lip service to most things including the environment. This isn't a Torry snipe, they are all as bad as each other including the Greens and everyone in between.

[Dillsue]

Not sure they are actually accepting customers as they sent me this on the 8 August-

 

Hello

We don't currently accept export customers without an MCS certificate, but we're in the very early stages of trialling a solution for non-MCS customers.

If you or anyone you know would like to hear if this becomes available, pop your name down here: https://octopus.typeform.com/to/UAbK9bRq

Kind regards,

Harriet

Octopus Energy Ltd is a company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 09263424. Registered office: UK House, 5th Floor, 164-182 Oxford Street, London, United Kingdom, W1D 1NN

On Fri, 04 Aug 2023 at 20:50, phill.edge@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

Hi. I've just read your Export Tariff Terms and Conditions and sections 5.7 and 5.8 seem to suggest that MCS accreditation isnt necessary? Could you confirm this please?

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, DougMLancs said:

There are too few MCS installers and it’s pushing up prices and preventing uptake

I don't think there is a lack of skill to install them, lack of incentive, on the part of the installers maybe i.e. uncertainty.

 

Here are the ONS numbers, since 2010, for below 4 kW_p systems.  March this year was around 38.5 MW installed.

If we say that the average installed capacity was 3 kW, that is 12,800 systems installed.

 

[DougMLancs]

17 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I don't think there is a lack of skill to install them, lack of incentive, on the part of the installers maybe i.e. uncertainty.

 

Here are the ONS numbers, since 2010, for below 4 kW_p systems.  March this year was around 38.5 MW installed.

If we say that the average installed capacity was 3 kW, that is 12,800 systems installed.

 

Sorry I should’ve specified I was talking about heat pumps in response to Sharpener’s post. We only have around 3000 heat pump installers and only 979 of those are MCS registered (though some admittedly will be umbrella schemes). I agree it’s a better situation with PV.

Edited August 16, 2023 by DougMLancs

[SteamyTea]

9 minutes ago, DougMLancs said:

Sorry I should’ve specified I was talking about heat pumps

Can't find the ONS numbers, but this is what Sky News had to say on it.

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-installs-record-number-of-heat-pumps-and-solar-panels-12939690

3000 HPs a month, but most will probably be on new builds.

[ProDave]

22 minutes ago, DougMLancs said:

We only have around 3000 heat pump installers and only 979 of those are MCS registered

Define what you mean by "heat pump installers"

 

I have fitted 4 of them now, (one being my own) and If I were not so much set on retiring, I could no doubt do a lot more.  But I can guarantee I don't appear on any list of "heat pump installers" anywhere.

 

The vast majority of plumbers and electricians, those that can read an installation manual, could fit heat pumps if there were incentives or even the will to do it.  but at the moment all they see is "reasons not to get involved"

[Blooda]

No real financial incentive for ASHP over Oil either, for those of us without gas, or Solar.  With Electric at circa  30p per kWh and Oil at 7p.

[JohnMo]

Not sure the statistics can be believed, there is no way mine will ever show up as it was self installed. Nor would any other self installed ASHP.

[Beelbeebub]

3 hours ago, ProDave said:

BUT just when you thought we might be on the way to easier and cheaper ASHP installs, THIS comes along  https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/news/heat-pump-defra-review

 

A different part of the same government now complaining they are too noisy for most urban settings with high density housing.

 

You can just see it in a few years "My boiler has broken down, I can't buy a new one, but neither can I fit an ASHP. Just what am i supposed to do?"

Dense urban areas are not famed for their quiet sound environments.

 

Where is the DEFRA investigation into traffic noise? Aircraft noise? Train noise? 

 

Having lived in London where I got all 3 on a regular basis plus general city noise like sirens, shouting, reversing beeps etc, I would have ahppily traded any one of those for a constant hum from a heatpump.

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

Dense urban areas are not famed for their quiet sound environments

Nor are rural areas.

An Eco Park near Porthtown has a festival every year.

This year they were told it was too noisy for some birds.

We all know how noisy birds are at 4 AM.

Then there is is tractors, motorcycles, and general traffic noise.

Oh, and the RAF, Air Ambulance, Coast Guard.

The Heliport for the Scillys.

Largest fishing port and the associated wet markets.

Tulip Bacon are near Redruth, Constant, 24/7 CBT artics on the move.

And the wind noise, that is pretty constant.

Cities are havens, if you can afford the good bits.

[Stones]

3 hours ago, ProDave said:

BUT just when you thought we might be on the way to easier and cheaper ASHP installs, THIS comes along  https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/news/heat-pump-defra-review

 

A different part of the same government now complaining they are too noisy for most urban settings with high density housing.

 

 

We went out of interest to have a look at a new development outside Inverness (Tormagrain).  No heat pumps, all gas.  When I questioned this, they said they had been refused permission for heat pumps, on the grounds of noise - apparently the combined effect in the house layout pattern would be over 100db.  The only way they could have a heat pump based system was to install a communal one (think large supermarket or warehouse size provision) and locate it away from the houses. High overhead cost, (albeit not insurmountable) to manage that - invoicing etc, and lack of support to maintain and service such units/systems apparently.

[Beelbeebub]

In the US the "cube" style heatpump (mainly cooling) systems are common. 

 

 

 

They have a fairly large heat exchange area in a compact form and the fan points upwards.  Even for a given noise output, if the majority was going upwards the effect of multiple units would be much less as there would almost never be anything for the sound to bounce back from.

 

This would be particularly the case if the units were not ground mounted , but wall mounted on the upper floor, much like many horizontal heatpumps are.

 

 

[SteamyTea]

20 minutes ago, Stones said:

The only way they could have a heat pump based system was to install a communal one

Or GSHP.

I would think on a new development, and this does depend on local geology, sinking boreholes is a pretty small cost.

They could also get water as well. If I had put a borehole in my place in 2005, I would be quids in now 

[Beelbeebub]

Of all the noise sources of a HP, the hardest to silence is the airflow.

 

Compressors, expansion valves, pups etc can all be put in a soundproof box, on isolation mounts etc.

 

But the air rushing through the heat exchanger and the fan powering that must be out in the open air.

 

We use fans to reduce the size of the heat exchange area, but what if we just increased the area instead?

 

A 1200x1200 triple panel radiator would extract 6kw if the delta T were 50C

 

if we make a more conservative dT of 20C you get about 2kw.

 

So if we had 3 of those 1200x1200 triple radiators we could extract about 6kw of heat using a dT of 20C (i.e. the refrigerant was at -25C when external air was -5C) 

 

Ecoforest have a system where they pump the "brine" for the GSHP system through some aero heat exchangers (i think danfoss used to have a similar system)

 

So if we stuck 5 or so of those rads on the outside of the house (let's say on the upstairs between the windows so the effect was not unlike upstairs cladding) and pumped brine through them to a plate HX heat pump.....

[Beelbeebub]

The other idea I had was if you had a HP that could fit through a loft hatch and had a ducted exhaust....

 

The ducted exhaust would exit upwards through the roof like a chimney.

The intake would be drawn from the loft area, with extra soffit venting to allow airflow into the loft space.  Additionally any house air or heat that leaks into the loft would be taken into the supply air and on sunny winter days any warming of the roof (dark tiles) would add supplemental heat.

 

The big issue would be retrofit (getting the bugger in the loft, putting the exhaust through the roof etc) and possibly structural vibration into the dwelling, but external noise would be much lower.

[SteamyTea]

7 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

So if we stuck 5 or so of those rads on the outside of the house

And

4 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

intake would be drawn from the loft area, with extra soffit venting to allow airflow into the loft space

Would both increase thermally losses from the house.

But maybe if radiators were just fitted on garden walks, that would do.

I like the idea of shooting air out a chimney, all those millions of houses that have chimneys could have a heat pump in the hearth, rather than a wood burner.

[ProDave]

49 minutes ago, Stones said:

 

We went out of interest to have a look at a new development outside Inverness (Tormagrain).  No heat pumps, all gas.  When I questioned this, they said they had been refused permission for heat pumps, on the grounds of noise - apparently the combined effect in the house layout pattern would be over 100db.  The only way they could have a heat pump based system was to install a communal one (think large supermarket or warehouse size provision) and locate it away from the houses. High overhead cost, (albeit not insurmountable) to manage that - invoicing etc, and lack of support to maintain and service such units/systems apparently.

Quite. So what is that sort of development supposed to use when gas boilers are not available any more?

 

Probably like a new estate in Tain, where all the heating is with electric boilers to radiators, and all the owners complain about huge heating bills.

[SteamyTea]

13 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Probably like a new estate in Tain, where all the heating is with electric boilers to radiators, and all the owners complain about huge heating bills.

That needs a lot of unpicking.

[Stones]

39 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Or GSHP.

I would think on a new development, and this does depend on local geology, sinking boreholes is a pretty small cost.

They could also get water as well. If I had put a borehole in my place in 2005, I would be quids in now 

 

Although I imagine the challenge given the postage stamp sized gardens is where would the ground pipes go.  As you rightly point out a borehole would solve this, but how many GSHPS can a borehole support - presumably as you also say, local geology dependant

[Beelbeebub]

18 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

And

Would both increase thermally losses from the house.

But maybe if radiators were just fitted on garden walks, that would do.

I like the idea of shooting air out a chimney, all those millions of houses that have chimneys could have a heat pump in the hearth, rather than a wood burner.

I have looked into that, the block of flats is well served with chimneys - which are just a royal pain in the arse, but might be useful of we could have a unit that sat in the fire place and spat out heat....

 

WRT the losses from the house, would they be losses? Because they would cycle right back into the heatpump?