Coping with scratched Hep2O

[MortarThePoint]

Do not scratch your Hep2O pipes and take them back if they come scratched. Line any penetrations through blockwork etc with conduit or foam insulation. Hep2O fittings seal onto the outside of the pipe using a rubber O-ring. There is a Hep2O lubricant designed for refreshing their fittings that could help with pushing pipes and reducing the chances of a scratch.

 

I have ended up with a scratched pipe(s) that I can't replace with confidence that the new pipe won't get scratched, here are my thoughts as to what I could do:

• [Maybe] Light scratches may be OK though I am a bit nervous. I only have light scratches and smeared printing. Sometimes a leak occurs at lower pressures that at a high test pressure so I always test at multiple pressures.
• [No?] polishing the pipe with fine grit sand paper or wire wool. I don't think this is a good idea as it will reduce the OD of the pipe and that is where the O-ring seals so likely to be bad. Has anyone had success polishing scratches out of Hep2O or similar polymer pipe?
• [Maybe] Use a compression fitting with copper olive. I have heard bad things about using compression fittings with Hep2O ( @Nickfromwales ), but it may be better than the alternatives. Wavin don't approve any sealant, just recommending PTFE tape if needed. A selant manufacturer may state their product is OK for Hep2O though.
• [Promising] Pegler's plastic push-fit system uses inserts that seal on to the inside of the pipe rather than the outside. I don't think you could mix brands (different ID?, tolerances, etc), but this made me think of Euroconus fittings which are used for UFH, but you can get WRAS approved parts. They also seal on the inside of the pipe using one or more o-rings. You can get 15mm straight couplers that would allow a cut and splice approach. I am thinking of using 15mm Euroconus to attach to a Euroconus manifold which you can also get WRAS approved. The main downside I can see is that it constricts the ID on the pipe fitting. For a 15mm pipe (ID approx 11mm) I guess the Euroconus ID would be around 7mm. A 7mm orifice at 6 L/min drops 0.53 m of head [link] which is equivalent to about 4m of 15mm Hep2O, so not bad. There may be a tighter orifice in the manifold itself. I believe Wavin approve the use of Euroconus fittings with their pipe, so it should be a robust solution.

 

Any advice or other possible solutions?

 

[joe90]

I was warned about this and protect the end before pulling into place, try to keep the pipe in the plastic bag before using . I used gaffer tape and used wet wipes to remove the glue before using a fitting. (More good advise from our guru from Wales @Nickfromwales 😇

[Iceverge]

Plastic bags and tape. I still got some scratches though so I just pulled through enough pipe until I got to a place that wasn't scratched and discarded the excess. 

 

It still sealed pretty well to be fair despite non perfect pipe in places.

 

I've don't a dozen or so compression joints with brass and the SS inserts despite @Nickfromwales best advice. No issues so far..................

[joe90]

23 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

I've don't a dozen or so compression joints with brass and the SS inserts despite @Nickfromwales best advice. No issues so far..................

My take on that is that compression joints were designed for copper not plastic, I am sure they will work (and have ) but I would rather not take the risk.

[Iceverge]

It's in the Hep manual so I assume it's ok. 

 

Our resident Parish Priest of Piping does advocate hep- hep push fitting-copper-compression though. 

[Nickfromwales]

Anyone who wishes to play devils advocate is more than welcome to knock themselves out  Fill yer boots.

A ridiculous risk afaic, and I would NEVER do this in a clients house, or anywhere else tbh!!!

 

Self builders can do what they like to themselves, at their own risk, I am a business that services clients so I do not have that 'luxury'. I cannot say to my customers "It seems OK today, hopefully tomorrow will be the same, fingers crossed". Why the hell someone would spend their life savings on a one-in-a-lifetime self build and take these risks is beyond my simple level of comprehension. It would save me time and money, make my business more profitable, so ask yourself why do I not do this?

 

Zero skin off my nose, but so cheap and simple to make this utterly bombproof I just wouldn't even consider "the alternatives".

 

11 hours ago, MortarThePoint said:

I have ended up with a scratched pipe(s) that I can't replace with confidence that the new pipe won't get scratched

Why not? Lack of employing a few hands to the pump? When installing 500m - 1000m long trace heating wires into ammunition lockers on board RFA naval vessels we often had up to 20 or more staff all appointed with a turn or a change in elevation, and the cables all went in without issue, 2 feet at a time. Offer friends and family free beer and a BBQ and get the thing changed!

 

The pipe can be changed, just avoid the issue that scratched it in the first place. 

You can buy cheap flexible conduit / similar and that's how I avoid scratching these pipes on my jobs, by using the same section (5-10m long or more) to create a slide for the pipe.

[Nick Laslett]

I have also gone down the Hep20 route, diy plumbing. I was also surprised how fragile the pipes are. I think the Wunda UFH pipe gave me a false sense of security. 
 

I was careful with the pipes, but still have a way to go before testing everything. I did manage to ruin two runs of pipe when the drill chuck got too close and burned holes in the pipes. 
 

It can be an expensive learning curve with some of this self build approach. No one to blame but myself. 
 

I also chose ICF, metal framing, and Fermacell, which all seem to come with there own special problems. 

[MortarThePoint]

33 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Why not? Lack of employing a few hands to the pump?

It's where I am squeezing 2no. 15mm and 2no. 10mm pipes through a section of 35mm waste pipe at 45 degrees through a blockwork wall. It's a tight squeeze and any slight debris will cause a scratch.

 

It's not the cost, I'd swap it if I thought it would work.

 

Do you not like the sound of the Euroconus fitting approach? Hep2O is designed for use with Euroconus.

[joe90]

It’s only the end you have to protect that goes into the fitting, not the whole pipe 🤷‍♂️.

[TonyT]

1 hour ago, MortarThePoint said:

It's where I am squeezing 2no. 15mm and 2no. 10mm pipes through a section of 35mm waste pipe at 45 degrees through a blockwork wall. It's a tight squeeze and any slight debris will cause a scratch.

 

It's not the cost, I'd swap it if I thought it would work.

 

Do you not like the sound of the Euroconus fitting approach? Hep2O is designed for use with Euroconus.

 

what happens when it expands and contracts and starts to make a noise?

[Marvin]

Passing a plastic pipe through a problem area I always tape over two inches of pipe near the beginning for protection.

[Nickfromwales]

11 hours ago, MortarThePoint said:

It's where I am squeezing 2no. 15mm and 2no. 10mm pipes through a section of 35mm waste pipe at 45 degrees through a blockwork wall. It's a tight squeeze and any slight debris will cause a scratch.

 

It's not the cost, I'd swap it if I thought it would work.

 

Do you not like the sound of the Euroconus fitting approach? Hep2O is designed for use with Euroconus.

What about cutting it elsewhere and only replacing a short section, joining these back together with a Hep coupler? There's zero compromise there, and these fittings are ultra-reliable.

If Wavin support the use of the Euro fittings then of course go for it. If the pipe isn't coming out again then you just need to choose the most robust repair. Is the scratch constant, or have you found a section where it is possibly not an issue?

[MortarThePoint]

Here are some pictures, though it can be hard to work out the scratches in some of the photos. Photos show 2no. 15mm and 1no. 10mm. You can see some small wisps of scratched plastic.

[MortarThePoint]

3 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

What about cutting it elsewhere and only replacing a short section, joining these back together with a Hep coupler? There's zero compromise there, and these fittings are ultra-reliable.

If Wavin support the use of the Euro fittings then of course go for it. If the pipe isn't coming out again then you just need to choose the most robust repair. Is the scratch constant, or have you found a section where it is possibly not an issue?

 

The scratches are pretty continuous so can't cut short and splice on a new bit using a Hep2O coupler to solve the issue.

 

Wavin list their own Euroconus adaptor on their website, so its fully legit : https://www.wavin.com/en-sg/product/b7e4577d-69fb-44c2-a1e0-23ab58110bb2

Available from a few places [1] [2], (~£8 each or a pair unclear). There are others for the same diameter and wall thickness. I have also seen for 10mm pipes [3].

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by MortarThePoint
links

[markocosic]

14 hours ago, TonyT said:

what happens when it expands and contracts and starts to make a noise?

 

Lock it in place at the restriction and take up the expansion elsewhere?

[MortarThePoint]

I've clipped my pipes every 300mm with Talon clips so they'll either all be speaking or my pipe's going nowhere 

[Huckleberrys]

Zero issues using compression on hep or any other plastic pipe. I have probably done more than 1000 over the years with not one leak and never any thought that they may leak down the line.

 

I find if scratch not too bad a fine cleaning pad will smooth the pipe fine. But if any concern at all just cut it out!

[Nick Laslett]

4 hours ago, Huckleberrys said:

Zero issues using compression on hep or any other plastic pipe. I have probably done more than 1000 over the years with not one leak and never any thought that they may leak down the line.

 

I find if scratch not too bad a fine cleaning pad will smooth the pipe fine. But if any concern at all just cut it out!

Is this the kind of pad you mean?

 

https://londontile.co.uk/genesis-725-wf-fine-white-cleaning-pads/

[Huckleberrys]

8 hours ago, Nick Laslett said:

Is this the kind of pad you mean?

 

https://londontile.co.uk/genesis-725-wf-fine-white-cleaning-pads/

Possibly...I just use my Yorkshire cleaning pad that I use to clean copper pipe.

[Nickfromwales]

Just use it in a rotation fashion around the pipe, do not 'polish' linear to the run, as that make make lines vs the 'rings' that you want to create. I'd say it will be fine, but I would also say it would need a good 72hrs at low . mid . high pressure test, and to be filled and emptied (to stress and relax the joint a few times) so maybe set this up as the outside tap and use it a few times a day for a few days.