Can you (and is it a good idea) fit a Loxone cabinet above the consumer unit

[puntloos]

This idea - LXN3 above consumer unit. 

 

The alternative is to have the loxone box on the other wall, but I'm hoping I can route the 240V up and either through or around the loxone box. Would that work?

(I don't think I'm allowed to reverse them, consumer unit has to be between 450 and 1200 mm above ground?)

Edited July 7, 2023 by puntloos

[TonyT]

Why not have a surface trunking with 2 compartments vertically in the corner,

 

1st compartment for the lox one, 2nd for the power.

 

both units either bushed onto trunking or further horizontal trunking added above below each box

[MikeSharp01]

I appreciate that this perhaps a little extreme but what you don't want is any large load switching / transitions or high frequency power control happening local to sensitive small signal cabling / devices. Having done a lot of work with EMC control, albeit in industrial / academic environment I am aware of just how challenging it can be at times to ensure no interference. So I would not run any thing like rings through the Loxone box and not have them running anywhere close to small signal cables EG networks (unless very well screened), alarm systems, sensor feeds, audio, and Radio Frequency (Aerial cables). Turning a Kettle on for instance puts a current spike on the ring and this leads to spiky magnetic effects emanating from the cable along its length.  If the Loxone box is metal you could mount it slightly off the wall and run the cables behind it and provide a good earth to the cabinet but keep the power lines to one side of the large duct shown in your drawing and once they get into the ceiling keep them separate from everything else in 3D space.  If it is plastic then put the power cables in metal trunking behind the cabinet and earth the trunking. I suspect that the power into the Loxone box and any power control it does will be set around with some advice from them about running the power lines within the cabinet.

[TonyT]

Does the lox one cabling have an overall screen?

 

agree with keeping the cables seperate as much as possible.

[ProDave]

Mains cables to / from the CU must go straight up or down or straight left or right within the dimensions of the consumer unit (safe zones) 

 

As the Loxone box is wider, you could route data cables up / down the wall at the edges of the loxone cabinet to give some separation.

 

Within those rules there is plenty of scope to get good separation, e.g. all mains cables to extreme right of CU safe zone and all data cables to extreme left of loxone cabinet.

[Dan F]

On 08/07/2023 at 00:34, puntloos said:

This idea - LXN3 

 

That's small!  Typically the whole top rail is used for terminal blocks and a good chunk of the bottom rail for RCBOs and power supplies etc.  This leaves you will a single rail for all your Loxone extensions, is this enough?  Or is this some sort of satellite cabinet?

 

Also, if you may be mounting any of the larger DIN-mounted power supplies typically used for LEDs, it can make sense to get the deep version of the LXN cabinet.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Dan F

[puntloos]

OK an updated design, then:

 

- LXN5 - with the 200wide, 100deep cable trunk on its left side.

- CU on the other wall.

- Units arranged to avoid the trunk.

 

Is this serviceable?

 

[TonyT]

Does the lox one door lift off?

many large panels have this facility, makes working on it easier?

 

does your proposed consumer unit not hinge upwards, most small domestic do?

[MikeSharp01]

On 08/07/2023 at 11:19, ProDave said:

Mains cables to / from the CU must go straight up or down or straight left or right within the dimensions of the consumer unit (safe zones)

Does that apply if the CU is in its own cabinet, with access hole to the switches, and / or cables are surface trunked?

[TonyT]

https://flameport.com/wiring_regulations/BS7671_selected_subjects/zones_concealed_cables.cs4
 

 

Safe zones, in corners of rooms and caused by electrical accessories

 

yes still applies as you could fix something in the future under the trunking etc.

safe zones give a general idea where cables should be run behind finished walls

 

[MikeSharp01]

3 minutes ago, TonyT said:

yes still applies as you could fix something in the future under the trunking etc.

safe zones give a general idea where cables should be run behind finished walls

Yes I understand the safe zone system but it seems odd it applies if the whole wall is the back of the panel and to drill a hole you would have to open the panel at which point the cables would not be concealed anymore so the regulation would no longer apply IMHO.

[TonyT]

No one said BS7671 was the finished article!

 

let’s be honest probably conceived when 2 single sockets and a switch and pendant were the norm!

[MikeSharp01]

Yes I guess it comes down somewhat to interpretation, ensuring the safety of future users and what the person signing it all off will accept. I surmise that if you have a 2m wide x 1 m high CU you will have loads of safe zone to play with. 

[ProDave]

And of course the big problem with safe zones, is nobody other than electricians knows about them, not even many other trades, so the protection they offer is minimal.

[Dan F]

8 hours ago, puntloos said:

OK an updated design, then:

 

- LXN5 - with the 200wide, 100deep cable trunk on its left side.

- CU on the other wall.

- Units arranged to avoid the trunk.

 

Is this serviceable?

 

Are you doing Loxone DIY or having someone do it for you?  Either way, it's a good idea to understand what's going on in the cabinet, and if you need any other satellite cabinets at this stage. Also to understand if you need the LXN-D.

 

In terms of trunking, depending on how much you are doing with Loxone there could be a huge amount of cables coming into the panel, both 24v and 230v.   What I have done, and I think others also do, is use two lots of trunking with the LHS trunking for low-voltage and the RHS trunking for 230v.  This follows the standard practice of using the LHS of the cabinet for low-voltage wiring and the RHS of the cabinet for 230v wiring.

 

[puntloos]

Small update to render:

 

I got a note that MVHR is seen as 'plumbing' and therefore there might be a concern having it hang above an electrical unit. Is that correct? Obviously it only handles air, but _maybe_ some risk around condensation?

 

[TonyT]

Can’t see a problem lots of electrics fitted under boilers that fit in kitchen cupboards 

 

hiweber if it does become an issue you could fit the loxobne unit in an IP enclosure?

 

 

[Dan F]

1 hour ago, puntloos said:

Small update to render:

 

I got a note that MVHR is seen as 'plumbing' and therefore there might be a concern having it hang above an electrical unit. Is that correct? Obviously it only handles air, but _maybe_ some risk around condensation?

 

As I mentioned in my previous post, you may need trunking from that out of your Loxone cabinet and it's a good idea to separate 24v and 230v.  This might be harder to improve on with the MVHR directly above the Loxone panel. Do you have a Loxone design yet and have you decided on your lighting control strategy? These would both help you understand how many terminations you will have into this panel as well as what size/depth cabinet you need.

 

In terms of the MVHR, does your design not include noise attenuators? If so, where will these go?   In our installation, our MVHR has some pretty large attenuators installed vertically above the MVHR, which wouldn't fit where you have the MVHR in your 3D model.  Unless you have a noise-attenuating manifold somewhere else?

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Dan F

[puntloos]

First off thank you for your detailed answers and tips @Dan F, I really appreciate the amount of questions you bring up that I as an amateur never thought of

 

4 hours ago, Dan F said:

 

As I mentioned in my previous post, you may need trunking from that out of your Loxone cabinet and it's a good idea to separate 24v and 230v.  This might be harder to improve on with the MVHR directly above the Loxone panel. Do you have a Loxone design yet and have you decided on your lighting control strategy? These would both help you understand how many terminations you will have into this panel as well as what size/depth cabinet you need.

I think you're right about the loxone, but I'm assuming this is in hand

 

How about this arrangement then? My main concern is that I don't know how much a MVHR can 'obscure' a consumer unit.

 

 

4 hours ago, Dan F said:

 

In terms of the MVHR, does your design not include noise attenuators? If so, where will these go?   In our installation, our MVHR has some pretty large attenuators installed vertically above the MVHR, which wouldn't fit where you have the MVHR in your 3D model.  Unless you have a noise-attenuating manifold somewhere else?

 

Yes, we do have attenuators from Zehnder - Zehnder confowell 625 with 12 outlet and Confowell attenuator, 235 deep, CW-S 625(990323505)

 

Not in the A2A Fan Coil Units though, would this type of device also help with FCU?

Edited July 11, 2023 by puntloos

[Dan F]

12 minutes ago, puntloos said:

Yes, we do have attenuators from Zehnder - Zehnder confowell 625 with 12 outlet and Confowell attenuator, 235 deep, tCW-S 625(990323505)

 

Are these all hidden in the ceiling then?  Good! We've got big Lindab Silencers and standard Lindab manifolds. That looks like a more compact solution which would allow MVHR at height.  Few observations though:

 

- You'll have to get on a stepladder to operate the controls (although you can do everything via the app if you buy the LAN extension box).

- You'll have to get on a stepladder to change filters.

- You'll need a condensate drain for the MVHR unless you have an enthalpy exchanger specified as we have. which doesn't require this.  
 

23 minutes ago, puntloos said:

I think you're right about the loxone, but I'm assuming this is in hand

 

It'll be in hand when you have a design and also know what you are doing for lighting control, so you can be confident about cabinet(s) size etc.

 

23 minutes ago, puntloos said:

How about this arrangement then? My main concern is that I don't know how much a MVHR can 'obscure' a consumer unit.

 

That looks better, but:

- Is the consumer unit within the height limits?

- Is the consumer unit big enough for all your circuits?  Ours is 850x465mm!!

- Is the consumer unit accessible enough and usable given the MVHR position?

[puntloos]

31 minutes ago, Dan F said:

 

Are these all hidden in the ceiling then?  Good! We've got big Lindab Silencers and standard Lindab manifolds. That looks like a more compact solution which would allow MVHR at height.  Few observations though:

 

- You'll have to get on a stepladder to operate the controls (although you can do everything via the app if you buy the LAN extension box).

- You'll have to get on a stepladder to change filters.

- You'll need a condensate drain for the MVHR unless you have an enthalpy exchanger specified as we have. which doesn't require this.  

 

Zehnder Q600 with EE indeed, no condensate drain

 

31 minutes ago, Dan F said:

It'll be in hand when you have a design and also know what you are doing for lighting control, so you can be confident about cabinet(s) size etc.

 

Worth a check - will do.

 

31 minutes ago, Dan F said:

That looks better, but:

- Is the consumer unit within the height limits?

My understanding of height limits is that while "1.45m" is a sensible implementation, anything below 2m seems allowable. A normal human should be able to reach without ladders, and well, most humans can reach about that.

 

31 minutes ago, Dan F said:

- Is the consumer unit big enough for all your circuits?  Ours is 850x465mm!!

I don't know! My site manager thinks it'll be a 'standard size' - about 460x240 - but he is no electrician so will have to verify.

31 minutes ago, Dan F said:

- Is the consumer unit accessible enough and usable given the MVHR position?

That's a tough one. 

Normally it would be partially obscured by the MVHR, but if I give.. 200? 300mm clearance between them that seems.. usable? Or?

IF it is indeed a standard height ('one row' - which is 240mm) then it could work nicely if it's mounted vertically

 Like so:

 

 

[Dan F]

Exactly the same MVHR as us then, yours is just specified to use all Zehender kits probably.

 

We have one of these, but we did bring 3-phase into the plant room.  https://hager.com/uk/products/h/jk112bg-125a-12-way-tpn-board-glazed

[Kelvin]

7 hours ago, Dan F said:

 

As I mentioned in my previous post, you may need trunking from that out of your Loxone cabinet and it's a good idea to separate 24v and 230v.  This might be harder to improve on with the MVHR directly above the Loxone panel. Do you have a Loxone design yet and have you decided on your lighting control strategy? These would both help you understand how many terminations you will have into this panel as well as what size/depth cabinet you need.

 

In terms of the MVHR, does your design not include noise attenuators? If so, where will these go?   In our installation, our MVHR has some pretty large attenuators installed vertically above the MVHR, which wouldn't fit where you have the MVHR in your 3D model.  Unless you have a noise-attenuating manifold somewhere else?

 

I’ve had this battle just today. Due to our ceiling height problem we can’t lose this above the ceiling which was the original plan ad we’ve had to push the ceiling header up reducing the void above. 

 

 

[Dan F]

8 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

I’ve had this battle just today. Due to our ceiling height problem we can’t lose this above the ceiling which was the original plan ad we’ve had to push the ceiling header up reducing the void above. 

 

Drop ceiling where you have this?  That's what we had to do..

[puntloos]

6 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Drop ceiling where you have this?  That's what we had to do..

Same. We have 2760 ceiling + 150 void and we're dropping to 2400 (so a 510 void.. for....:

 

boom.

(the MVHR has been relocated to the left, after this design was issued)

 

As for CU:

33 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Exactly the same MVHR as us then, yours is just specified to use all Zehender kits probably.

 

We have one of these, but we did bring 3-phase into the plant room.  https://hager.com/uk/products/h/jk112bg-125a-12-way-tpn-board-glazed

 

Oh dear, we also have 3 phase, well, I'll use the spec of yours for now (I'm sure the elec team will pick a correct one, I just don't know which)

 

And then rejigger... again:

 

- CU on side wall, but does not clash with MVHR

- MVHR 100mm off that wall, so opening it will be unobstructed

- Loxone under MVHR, should be fine if the device is 99.9% drip-free with the enthalpic thing

- LXN5 sits on floor, allowing for a decent-ish space to route the (red) cable ducts.

 

One of our main goals is to preserve as much standing space as possible so the wall units end at 2000, and loxone, cabling is all thin.