The Road Tax Riddle

[Ferdinand]

I am expecting to do several renovations over the next couple of years, and I will need to go back to having my own car (or two). I am probably looking for a car to tow heavyish loads on a long (say 4m or 5m) trailer, and a runabout for local work.

With road tax changes and very aggressive charges tapers for larger CO2 emissions (now) or larger purchase prices (next year), and in year 1 of ownership. I wonder whether anyone has got their head around the changes? Vehicles are grandfathered at their current rates if per-1/4/2017.

Details: http://www.whatcar.com/advice/owning/road-tax-bands/

Ignoring the Year 1 regime, as I am mainly interested in ownership for a number of years and not buying new, it seems to me the sweet spots for minimising road tax seem to be:

1 - Cars pre 1/4/2017 with <120 g/km CO2 - up to £30 per year road tax.

2 - Cars post-1/4/2017 with <1 g/km CO2 - zero road tax.

3 - Smaller or mid-size 4x4s pre 1/4/2017 with roughly <160 g/km CO2.

4 - Larger 4x4s post 1/4/2017 which cost less than £40k new. £140 road tax.

My requirements would be:

A - ZEV runabout. 

B - Car / 4x4 able to tow 2000kg and ideally 3000kg, with low road tax, and reliable, LPG is a possibility, but also diesel/petrol since for a reasonably low mileage I would get heavily reduced fuel for all of it via Morrisons. Ideally that last implies a fuel tank of roughly 100 litres.

Given that I'm likely to be working through a Ltd Company, I may well need a tachograph in addition. Unfortunately.

Recommendations of particular vehicles would be most welcome.

Ferdinand

 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Ferdinand

[Crofter]

Did you mean "<100g" to get zero road tax?

 

FiL's X3 is a pretty decent vehicle, not cheap but tows over two tonnes and surprisingly economical on both fuel and tax. Has the stop-start system which helps in that respect. He won't lend it to me to tow stuff with though, it's far too nice

[Ferdinand]

7 minutes ago, Crofter said:

Did you mean "<100g" to get zero road tax?

 

FiL's X3 is a pretty decent vehicle, not cheap but tows over two tonnes and surprisingly economical on both fuel and tax. Has the stop-start system which helps in that respect. He won't lend it to me to tow stuff with though, it's far too nice

It is <100g for vehicles bought up to 1/4/2017, then it becomes <1g. Will correct.

I'd regard car tax up to £30 as negligible, and up to about £180 as worth thinking about if the vehicle is right. Once it jumps to £250-300 year that becomes a bit of a disincentive imo as that is a couple of thousand extra over the lifetime of the ownership.

Ferdinand

Edited June 7, 2016 by Ferdinand

[Declan52]

Or do like the most of ni and pay the high tax but run the 4*4 on red diesel.

[Jeremy Harris]

Towing seems to be the sticking point, as so many low emission vehicles are made now with no Type Approval to allow the fitting of a tow bar.  This is an EU thing, as the same vehicles are available in the USA with a tow bar option.  I tow a small boat trailer from time to time, and have had to resort to importing a US made "receiver hitch" and taking the tow ball off when I'm not towing.  It's dodgy, as my car insurance reverts to 3rd party only whilst I'm using the trailer, but the insurers are fine with just the "receiver hitch" fitted (and declared) as it can also act as a bike rack mount.

I know people in the US that have towed pretty hefty loads with a Prius, and never had a problem.  They've been doing this for years, too (and so have I, I bought my first Prius in 2005).  Toyota themselves have no problem technically with fitting a hitch, in fact they provide all the load details needed for the built-in hitch attachments on the frame, but for whatever reason they won't declare a hitch as being allowable under EU Type Approval.

The odd thing is that the police don't have a problem with the receiver hitch fitted to my car.  I had one written off with the receiver fitted (and a bike rack fitted to it) and the police did check the hitch approval sticker and declared that they were happy with the US DOT certification.

It's a nuisance, as there are a lot of potentially viable low emission (and hence low tax) towing vehicles around that just can't legally be used for the purpose.

[Ferdinand]

The best hybrids I know for towing are the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV which is I think 1500kg, and the existing Lexus RX 450 h and predecessors which have limits around 2000kg, but they are not Plug-ins.

I am told the Lexus can deliver a genuine 40mpg. A neighbour had one but said the performance wasn't towering enough; he hankered after an Overfinch Range Rover :-) .

Both may be good secondhand buys; Lexi because they last though are reported as being as engaging as a fridge, and have on demand 4wd not permanent, and Outlander PHEVs are dipping below 25k now, while being more practical than glamorous.

I'm ignoring the 50k new Volvos and BMWs and Audis as being beyind satire pricewise at present.

But I do like the look of Audi A6 Allroads (except for the silly sloping back window).

Ferdinand

 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Ferdinand

[ProDave]

I will post my off the peg unusual take on vehicles.

We are being driven (excuse the pun) to smaller and smaller less powerful and less poluting vehicles. That's fine for personal passenger transport, but a big problem when you want to shift stuff or tow something. I do a lot of both and my Subaru Forrester does the job well, but it's very old now and won't last much longer.

As we head towards retirement I can foresee a time when we don't really need a car each, so the one shared car will probably be something small and low emission.

That is part of the reason I bought my old Landrover a few years ago, Made in 1972 it is a "historic vehicle" so the road tax is £0. Comprehensive classic car insurance is £80 per year.  It's rebuilt on a new galvanised chassis so that should outlast me. So it's just a case of fix things when they break which is all basic engineering, no electronic gizmo's to spell a premature end to the vehicle due to silly costs. It's rated to tow 2 tons.

So I can foresee a time when we have one nice modern small car, and the Landrover for the towing and when we both want to go to different places at the same time.

Of course the Landrover is anything but low emission, and it drinks petrol like it is going out of fashion, but the point is, in all other ways it is cheap, and it won't be doing much mileage.

And I know for a fact it is already worth more than I paid for it, another advantage of being old, it won't depreciate in value.

It's my way of sticking two fingers up at the "establishment" that is trying to force us to drive tiny under powered cars that can't tow anything or carry a decent load.

[PeterW]

+1 to the Landy - I have a 1975 series 3..!

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

For around 7 years I kept an old Diahatsu FourTrak just for towing (then it was my big aeroplane trailer much of the time).  I paid £1000 for it and only ever had to do one repair, a new set of seals and pistons for the front brakes, about £30 IIRC.  Even when I got rid of it the tyres it came with still had masses of tread left.  It never failed to start, even when left for months on end and I rarely did more than 1000 miles a year in it, with the exception of one year when I towed the aeroplane down to the Loire for a couple of weeks flying and a holiday there, where I needed more luggage (and wine-carrying capacity for the return trip) than would fit in the aeroplane.

It never once let me down and was a surprisingly good 4 x 4, with no sign of any rust on it at all when I eventually got rid of it, when it was 19 years old.  I regret having got rid of it, especially over the past three years where it would have been very useful for the new build, but I was buying a new Prius in 2010 (before we'd even seen our plot of land), had stopped flying so didn't need a big tow car and the government were offering £2000 scrappage.  So, after 7 years use I "sold" it for a profit about £970.....................

I've been seriously tempted to get an older tax-exempt car as a general runabout.  A bizarre idea I've had for a few years now is to buy a basket case Austin 7 or similar ("sit up and beg" style, like the Ruby) and convert it to an electric car as a local runabout and shopping car, keeping the decent car for longer journeys.  I stripped and rebuilt (from the chassis up) a 1937 Morris 8 open tourer years ago, and cars of that era are a delight to work on mechanically, as it's easy enough to fabricate just about any non-engine or gearbox part you need.  Hence the idea to get something similarly small and easy to work on and just fit a decent electric drive train, which would make such a car far more driveable and virtually do away with most of the servicing (except the couple of dozen chassis grease points!).

[ProDave]

And pre 1960 has the advantage of no MOT either. (I would have a series 1 Landrover if I could find one at a sensible price)

[Ferdinand]

I concur with the No Tax philosophy, and I always had a hankering for a Bristol (growing up in an NSU RO80 instills a love of engineering and a hatred of unreliability) - but the 14 mpg always seemed daunting. When I lived in Chiswick in about 2002 I went to see their only dealership in Kensington one morning with an imaginary 30k to spend and had a great chat with Tony Crook who built up the car company after the war, and was about 82 but still in the showroom.

My contention is that we have a new batch of millions of essentially tax-free-for-their-lifetime cars which have been in bands A, B and C over the last few years, and which will give anyone sensible tax-free motoring for the next 15 years, given the lifetime of modern cars.

There are some interesting options that I am only digging into slowly.

eg 

Nissan Qashqai 1.6 dCi Acenta Premium 4wd is 130 bhp and a lot of torque, while having a towing weight of 1800kg, and a road tax of £110 only. It was also What Car Tow car of the Year 2014. And it does a real world 48-50mpg in daily use.

At a higher road tax level I like as I said the Audi Allroad which I can probably buy at 100k miles and realistically expect a further 7-8 years service.

The homework continues.

Ferdinand

 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Ferdinand

[Oz07]

Who's told you that tacho is necessary if ltd company?!

tacho is necessary regardless of trading status but it's based on vehicles and weights. Obviously sometimes you could potentially be towing some weight pushing you above 3.5t gtw. I'd check whether this means you need tacho. 

Not it sure how it stacks up going forward but as far as I'm aware all private light goods are £230 a year. Think the 4x4 pickups fall into this band?

[Ferdinand]

27 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

Who's told you that tacho is nessecary if ltd company?!

tacho is nessecary regardless of trading status but it's based on vehicles and weights. Obviously sometimes you could potentially be towing some weight pushing you above 3.5t gtw. I'd check whether this means you need tacho. 

Not it sure how it stacks up going forward but as far as I'm aware all private light goods are £230 a year. Think the 4x4 pickups fall into this band?

I honestly don't know much about this yet,

But my building site may have finally sold, so I expect to be doing some more rentals and renovations with the proceeds, and Mr Osborne's tax changes have made a Limited Company a likely option. It is also now in a company, so I can control the tax more by jkeeping the money there (maybe).

If my Gross Train Mass is above 3,5T and I am doing it for a limited company, I think that tachos apply. Given a decent towing vehicle is towards 2000kg and a trailer may weigh 750kg itself, I can see me going over 3.5T even with 40 bags of sand (or a single big bag) or decent loose load of gravel.

Add in to that that all the towing laws are a confusing pig's breakfast, and the propensity to enforce on the basis of the theoretical rather than what you are actually doing, and I can see that it would be sensible to have one :-) .

Though if I went for the Qashqai first time round, that may keep me under 3500 kg just.

Ferdinand

[Crofter]

The 3.5t limit is for the laden trailer, not the train weight. Shortlist of vehicles rated to tow this:

- Defender, Range Rover, Disco

- LWB Shogun

- Nissan Patrol

- Grand Cherokee

- Fourtrak

 

I happen to remember this because I used to own a 27ft yacht plus trailer, and it was right on the 3.5t limit. So every Discovery owner I ever met became a potential new best friend when I needed to tow it somewhere

[Ferdinand]

Quote

2. Tachographs in light vehicles

If you use a smaller vehicle (eg a 4x4) for towing, you’ll only need a tachograph if its total weight is more than 3.5 tonnes.

https://www.gov.uk/tachographs/tachographs-in-light-vehicles

Quote

3. Goods vehicles

The rules that apply to goods vehicles depend on the weight of your vehicle, the country you’re driving in and what you’re using the vehicle for.

EU rules

EU rules apply if the maximum permissible weight of your vehicle or vehicle combination is more than 3.5 tonnes and you’re driving in any of the following:

• the EU (including the UK)
• an European Economic Area (EEA) country
• Switzerland

Some vehicles are exempt from EU rules when driven in the UK.

https://www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/goods-vehicles

Quote

6. EU rules

Driving hours

The main EU rules on driving hours are that you must not drive more than:

• 9 hours in a day - this can be extended to 10 hours twice a week
• 56 hours in a week
• 90 hours in any 2 consecutive weeks

All driving you do under EU rules must be recorded on a tachograph.

https://www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/eu-rules

Therefore EU Rules apply if it is over 3.5T Gross Train Mass, and I need a tachograph .. I think.

Do I need one if self-employed?

Edited June 7, 2016 by Ferdinand

[ProDave]

Isn't at least one of the Ford Transit variants rated to tow 3.5 ton? It's regularly mentioned on the boating forums for that reason.

If you are driving a vehicle over 3.5t for private use the tachograph laws don't apply. Or at least that's what I was told on the two occasions i have hired 7.5t vehicles for private use. You are also exempt from the goods vehicle operators licence if it's for private use, e.g you see a lot of 7.5t horse boxes. but I guess that doesn't help you if it's business use.

[Stones]

There'sa useful summary of the tacho exemptions here:

http://www.ifor-williams.fr/news/tacho/index.htm

It is a bit out of date, 50km is now 100km, but AFAIK everything else is the same. If you are at all unsure, contact your local DVSA office.

[AliG]

I really wouldn't single out road tax specifically when looking at the running costs of a vehicle.

Unless you buy a very cheap vehicle and drive a very low mileage it will only be a modest percentage of the running costs other than maybe the L and M bands at £500+

If you spend £25,000 second hand you are likely looking at around £3-4000 a year in depreciation, £1500 a year for fuel assuming 15,000 miles at 30MPG, £500 for servicing and warranty/repair. Call it £5000 a year. A couple of hundred extra road tax may well be offset by lower other figures. I think you'd be better to look at the total cost.

Admittedly, if the figures are honest, higher road tax may suggest higher fuel consumption also so it may suggest higher costs in total. Unless you drive a very high mileage, however, depreciation might well be the highest cost. Again though there can be an association between running costs and depreciation. If you keep a car until it is 10+ years old though it will lose almost all of its value, you can almost assume that the whole cost will be depreciation.

If you buy a sub £10000 car and drive low miles then it will be fair to say that car tax would be a higher percentage of running costs, but I would still look at them as a whole.

Vehicle A - Nissan leaf seems the obvious choice for a used ZEV vehicle at reasonable cost.

Vehicle B - Towing isn't my forte but knowing the budget would probably help people. To tow over 2000kg at reasonable cost your 4x4 choices are probably Kia Sorento or Hyundai Santa Fe. The other choice is the various Japanese pick ups.

Unless you really need two cars it would be likely cheaper to just buy vehicle B and pay the fuel costs but reduce the outlay on depreciation and maintenance.

[Ferdinand]

On 7 June 2016 at 22:54, Stones said:

There'sa useful summary of the tacho exemptions here:

http://www.ifor-williams.fr/news/tacho/index.htm

It is a bit out of date, 50km is now 100km, but AFAIK everything else is the same. If you are at all unsure, contact your local DVSA office.

I see that people on islands under 2300 sq km are exempt from EU driver hours regs, and the required tachometers.

As are Local Authority vehicles - why?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hours-goods-vehicles/1-eu-and-aetr-rules-on-drivers-hours

Edited June 9, 2016 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

* That Island one does not apply to Skye because there is a bridge. 

[Stones]

The theory is that on such islands it wouldn't be possible to drive any significant distance without stops and therefore virtually impossible to breach drivers hours.

Local authorities for much the same reason but also because the vast majority of driving is ancillary to the role rather than its main purpose. 

Edited June 9, 2016 by Stones

[Crofter]

That 2300km2 is conveniently just enough to cover all islands from Lewis/Harris (2200km2) down.

Not many people appreciate that Lewis & Harris comprises the third biggest island in the British isles.

 

Oh and don't get me started on the bridge