ASHP, how to decide - I just don't get it!

[Jenki]

On 26/05/2023 at 08:12, ProDave said:

silly over inflated prices of MCS installers

This is the problem, and government grants...

I was chatting to a crofter who got a grant towards his ASHP from a wind farm company. So we enquired. Yes we can have 6k towards it. As long as it's MCS installed. So unfortunately this pushes up the price. MCS firms must be making a fortune.

We can have a grant and it will cost me more than self installation how can they be correct?

My thoughts is that any grant assistance should be separate from the purchase   / installation somehow. 

[saveasteading]

9 minutes ago, Jenki said:

As long as it's MCS installed. So unfortunately this pushes up the price. 

I have always found that installation by such firms costs so much that the grant is less than worthless. They pay their reps a lot to chase the jobs and the reps I have encountered knew nothing.

Similar with getting lottery money....you have to engage their approved architects....and the money is gone, and the build cost spirals too.

[SteamyTea]

If you want to hear some total twats talking about heat pumps, listen to this.

Any Answers

 

The general public really are ignorant.

 

 

[Jimbo37]

5 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Probably the biggest problem is controllers, too many on the market and no standard interface.

Yes, I really hope to not be the only one in the house who can "turn on" the heat! I know, maybe "turning it on" is old hat, but you know what I mean

 

5 hours ago, JamesPa said:

As your journey continues please feel free to post again here

The discussion, even if not conclusive, is always reassuring.

 

5 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Heat Pump topic under the Renewable Energy section of this forum

Oops!

[Jimbo37]

33 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

If you want to hear some total twats talking about heat pumps, listen to this.

Is this the wrong link, or am I missing the joke?

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, Jimbo37 said:

Is this the wrong link, or am I missing the joke?

Whoops, linked to the live Page, so John Finnemore ATM.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001mbl9

[Jimbo37]

58 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Whoops, linked to the live Page, so John Finnemore ATM.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001mbl9

At 16:24 - so what is the solution, Susan  LOL

[SteamyTea]

35 minutes ago, Jimbo37 said:

so what is the solution

'are you an engineer'

 

'no, I am a (expletive deleted)'

[Jimbo37]

I've read about half of John cantor - linked above. It's a solid, informative explination of HP, but I still don't feel ept. Mind you, he says at the start that it comes together near the end. Even if it does not fully come into focus, it's a great basis to start to understand what you are buying. If it does come together for me, I might design my own system - after all, there are a lot of trade off decisions between investment and cop that only I can judge. Highly recommended read (with the tv off and kids away)

[Dave Jones]

On 25/05/2023 at 23:13, Jimbo37 said:

A pointer, please. I'm building new and I have opted for ASHP (I've seen nothing especially wonderful about ASHP, but it seems to deliver at a comparible cost to oil, and easier to get BC/SAP on board, but this is not the point). I'm in N Ireland and have 3 prices from installers that use their suppliers design service (Grant, Warmflow and another). None of the 3 can provide any detailed information on what their proposed system is, basically " in case the design is copied". I want to know a lot before i decide, from pipe size to zones, to controls and equipment, coz i get one shot at this, its expensive, and must work without me having to get a degree in Turning-On-The-Heat!!. 

 

Until this moment, I assumed the supplier was the cautious one, but as I write I realise that does not stack up because having designs with their equipment out there is good.

 

Anyhow, has anyone else had this issue? Do I just hold a tight reign, or is there a better way to choose?

 

had exactly the same experience. Not found any of the firms who will go less than 12k for a 3k heatpump and 2k of cylinder and fittings. Ask them to breakdown the costs and they wont or you never hear back as its easier for them to scam the next unsuspecting punter. 

 

Going direct with city plumbing and plumber used before, may be a bit trial and error but at least not being ripped off by supposed 'MCS'.

 

Solar was exactly the same when it came out, now there is no FIT and MCS its cheap.

[SteamyTea]

7 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

Solar was exactly the same when it came out, now there is no FIT and MCS its cheap.

Nothing to do with the global market then.

I know you hate anything that shows there is a wider world that the UK is not in charge of.

 

Historical PV prices

 

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/solar-pv-prices?yScale=linear&time=2000..latest

 

[Dave Jones]

more dodgy math.

 

according to your chart 2021 price is $0.21/w.

 

show me where I can buy a 400w panel for £68 ?

 

lala land.

[saveasteading]

25 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

Solar was exactly the same when it came out, now there is no FIT and MCS its cheap.

I think , without fail, the government's green deals have spent all the money on consultants and the excessive margins of approved 'specialists'.

For a while you could get grants for wind turbines and hydro, regardless of them being unfit for purpose.

 

[SteamyTea]

11 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

more dodgy math.

 

according to your chart 2021 price is $0.21/w.

 

show me where I can buy a 400w panel for £68 ?

 

lala land.

You can't, because you are an insignificant retail purchaser in a high cost country who does not buy anything of significance.

But Midsomer will sell you a 400 W module for £200.

https://midsummerenergy.co.uk/buy/large-solar-panels/longi-lr5hib-400w

 

That 400 W module would have cost $84 when it left the factory in 2021, the average exchange rate then was 0.7271 GBP.

So £115.53.

Not much of a mark up considering.

[saveasteading]

Knowing we pay more for everything in the uk, I searched abroad. This is a French diy store with branches in Spain. So what margin would b &q have? 50%?

Take off vat, deduct 50% ish margin, -15% conversion and we get  £60 ish.

[JohnMo]

Why go abroad city plumbing.

 

Plus currently you get 10% off that price.

 

[saveasteading]

57 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Why go abroad

Well found.

As usual, the same number of pounds as euros.

Someone takes that 15%, and I think it is the manufacturer/distributor, because they can.

Not brexit for once, it was always thus.

[SteamyTea]

53 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Someone takes that 15%

The Port of Rotterdam will take a slice.  Most goods that are shipped to Europe, and geographically we are in Europe, go via there, so a bit of double handling.

Then there is exchange rate fluctuation, which ever way it is done, the UK, having an independent sovereign currency, will have charges, usually higher than the $ or € as they are currencies that are in greater circulation (so 'collected' by other countries to help stabilise world trade).

Then we have high storage prices because we have high property prices.

So I doubt that anyone is actually overcharging because they can, we just have high costs of doing business.

[JohnMo]

Plenty of people take a slice of the cake to get from manufacturer costs, to the consumer cost. Import duty, vat, wholesaler profit, retailer profit, transportation etc.

[SteamyTea]

32 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Plenty of people take a slice of the cake to get from manufacturer costs, to the consumer cost. Import duty, vat, wholesaler profit, retailer profit, transportation etc.

We should go back to a state owned energy company again, many people want it.

Then we could have something similar to this, after a decades wait.

[saveasteading]

36 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Plenty of people take a slice of the cake to get from manufacturer

Yes, but from China to UK or China to EU much the same. 

 

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

doubt that anyone is actually overcharging

Well then, as one example, I found that a steel permanent shutter system was 20% cheaper in France. Arranged for it to be delivered to a continental trading partner to bring over. Still 15% saving, or about £20k in current terms.  It reached a late stage, and somebody told them where it was eventually going, and they cancelled it unilaterally.

Presumably they thought we had to use it in a designed building and they would keep the money now and on future uk jobs.

So we changed to pc planks.

That was in EU times.

Only one example and I have discussed it with EU contractors. We pay more.

[SteamyTea]

52 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

  It reached a late stage, and somebody told them where it was eventually going, and they cancelled it unilaterally

So you didn't actually buy it.

 

If you look at purchasing price parity prices, there is not much difference between place in the developed world.

Exchange rates and product taxes can often make a difference.

 

[saveasteading]

24 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

you didn't actually buy it.

Of course not. £20k more to buy it in Britain through their UK office, than buy in France and ship over, after allowing for double handling and admin.

If it had been a contract requirement then we would have had to pay the uk  price. 

So it became uncompetitive and  I redesigned with a conpletely different strategy. They lost the sale.

Most big projects are specified by the SE and the contractor has no choice. All the tenders will allow it and the client pays.

I spoke to EU contractors I knew. They pay less on many products.

 

The same used to apply to cars, maybe still does.

[Jimbo37]

22 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Nothing to do with the global market then.

Mmh, I'm inclinded to agree with @Dave Jones - I am unsure what Global vs UK really has to do with it - UK grant scheme is evidently an implementation piece for a wider global market, underpinned by carbon tagrets, incentives and fines. We need something done about carbon, no question there, so it is not all bad - but there are racketeer companies making hay while the sun shines (quite literally ).

 

Maybe slightly tangential, but there is precious little vocal advocation for the consume-less solution, just consume-better which looks like consume-more-better.

[JamesPa]

34 minutes ago, Jimbo37 said:

Maybe slightly tangential, but there is precious little vocal advocation for the consume-less solution, just consume-better which looks like consume-more-better.

....because people are still labouring under the misapprehension that tackling climate change wont involve any sacrifices, and weak-willed governments are indulging (arguably encouraging) that fantasy. 

 

Had we started properly 20-30 years ago, it might have been possible to adapt without sacrifice.  Now it isn't.  We will both see devastating effect of climate change (most likely manifested as mass migration and armed conflict) and have to adapt our behaviours to stop it getting even more catastrophic.