Facing bricks: dense with 2 indents / frogs

[sbm74]

The facing bricks we've chosen are made of shale clay and are very dense (91N/mm2) and have two indents in them. Our bricklayer is telling me that he will need to increase his cost as the two indents will take him much longer to lay. The manufacturer is telling  me that they're only 2mm indents and shouldn't cause any problems. They're made in the UK by a reputable manufacturer based in the north west and all their bricks are like this. Our contractor is also trying to get me to pay extra to have a lot of bricks cut off site as they're too dense to be cut on site.  We specified and bought the bricks months ago before we signed the final contract with the main contractor. The density information is available on the manufacturer's website and I believe this is something that the contractor should have checked before pricing the job. 

 

Would appreciate your thoughts. 

[Canski]

Can you put a photo up ?

[Mr Punter]

A 2mm indent is not a proper frog.  These should not be more difficult to lay.  If there are lots of cuts you can hire a wet cut masonry saw.

 

91N/mm2 is not the density it is the compressive strength.

 

How much was the original brickwork contract and how much more do they want?

[nod]

He would be better being honest and ask you for an uplift in his price Loke everywhere else 

[Dave Jones]

On 04/05/2023 at 07:14, sbm74 said:

The facing bricks we've chosen are made of shale clay and are very dense (91N/mm2) and have two indents in them. Our bricklayer is telling me that he will need to increase his cost as the two indents will take him much longer to lay. The manufacturer is telling  me that they're only 2mm indents and shouldn't cause any problems. They're made in the UK by a reputable manufacturer based in the north west and all their bricks are like this. Our contractor is also trying to get me to pay extra to have a lot of bricks cut off site as they're too dense to be cut on site.  We specified and bought the bricks months ago before we signed the final contract with the main contractor. The density information is available on the manufacturer's website and I believe this is something that the contractor should have checked before pricing the job. 

 

Would appreciate your thoughts. 

 its BS.

 

 

[sbm74]

Further update: bricklayer is asking for £10k uplift on a £200k job (it's a big house and it's Flemish Bond)  to use these bricks. It's clear that the bricklayer and the contractor didn't check the specs of the bricks that we'd chosen. We do like this brick, but if we'd known it was going to cost us this much more we'd have chosen something else. Neither of them are admitting any fault. Bricks are on site and paid for so we can't change at this stage.  Would the compressive strength and absorption rate not be something that is checked before pricing a job? Also to ensure that the brick is suitable to use?

 

Photos attached showing 1 out of the 3 samples with a larger indent on the bottom face.   

 

Thanks for the comments so far.

[ETC]

No fixed price contract?

[Dave Jones]

Ah its Flemish now the real reason!

 

They didn't realise this and now need to cut massive amounts of the bricks into half's and queen closers. days and days of work cutting and not laying. 

 

I know because our build is using Flemish bond and I'm doing the cutting, 1 in 5 packs of bricks is all half's so you can imagine the time needed. 

 

And you cant just chop a brick in half as it wont be a half so each brick has  be cut twice.

 

If you have time to do it yourself offer to, would be a massive saving. I bought an electric table saw for the job and can do a pack a day on it. I got a price on from a brick cutting service but it was horrendous.

[sbm74]

Yes it is fixed price. They're claiming that these bricks are unusual and that this couldn't have been reasonably foreseen.  We can insist that they swallow this cost, but so early into our build it's going to put a massive strain on our relationship with the contractor.

[Canski]

It sounds to me that the contractor has done what many contractors do and overseen the extra time and cost involved in providing a feature such as flemish bond. I don't think it is anything to do with the bricks but its easier for them to use that as an excuse over ' Oh we didn't realise the extra work involved but have just googled flemish bond and oh shit that's going to cost us'

[Big Jimbo]

I would be peed off if i were you. Ask him if he missed the Flemish bond when pricing up the job ? I would want him to admit this as a good faith gesture. Providing he admits his cock up, i would, in a friendly way, point out the fixed price contract, and offer to pay 33% of the 10k. I would have thought that that was fair. The most i would go to would be 50% of the 10K. You want to try and keep things friendly, but don't want to be bent over by your builder for his cock up.

[BadgerBadger]

I agree, I don't think it's really anything to do with the brick but likely the extra work in the bond that wasn't costed properly.  Hopefully it's clear in the specification and you can use this as a bit of leverage.

 

We've just done Flemish garden wall (similar but not quite as many headers) and setting out the bond around all the openings/corners was time consuming.  We had our headers and closers cut off-site, and it might be good to offer to have this done especially if your bricks are difficult to cut.

[twice round the block]

Get cutting, once you get it setup it's not too bad.

 

They didn't allow for flemish bond and cutting a fairly hard brick is the reason for the uplift on price.

[Canski]

we just sent 11000 bricks to be cut in half for a house built in english bond Cost = £0.59 per cut.

 

[Dave Jones]

i bought the saw below. can do 4 bricks at a time.

 

https://www.redbanduk.co.uk/red-band-elite-80-14-masonry-saw-110v-electric

 

 

[twice round the block]

4 hours ago, Canski said:

we just sent 11000 bricks to be cut in half for a house built in english bond Cost = £0.59 per cut.

 

£6490 adds to the price of the job if it was expected.

When it comes in later, your a bit stuffed

[ETC]

I agree with most posters - his mistake but you don’t want to sour the relationship. Ask him to meet you half way and ask him if there is anything else he has missed.

[Dave Jones]

19 hours ago, Canski said:

we just sent 11000 bricks to be cut in half for a house built in english bond Cost = £0.59 per cut.

 

 

i'll do them for 50p!

[Brickie]

Was it explicitly clear in the contract docs that Flemish bond was to be used?

[Kelvin]

Definitely cut them yourself it’s easy enough. I helped a pal do this last year and it saved him about £5k 

[sbm74]

We managed to get them cut for £0.45 per cut and we're not going to have time to do this ourselves. It was explicit in the contract and drawings that it was Flemish bond. Contractor veers between admitting it was his mistake and saying we should have provided a sample.

 

Thanks for all the replies. Really  helpful.

[Mr Punter]

£200k for brickwork is loads.  The contractor should be asking their QS why they missed the Flemish Bond spec.