Hello

[Andrew]

Hello,

 

We have had our offer accepted on a plot in a Cheshire village. It has detailed planning permission for a five bedroom house. It's quite a traditional design and we're uncertain at the moment whether we are going to try to modify the existing permission or start again with a new design, but we'll get to that once we've got the land purchased. 

 

I've been lurking on this forum for quite a while and it's definitely one of the most helpful and knowledgable forums I've seen. You often get a lot of armchair experts on forums but what strikes me is that there's so much practical knowledge and real world experience being shared. We're very much at the beginning of our journey and so far there's a bewildering amount of choices to be made and knowledge to be gained. To start with I'm sure I'll be mainly asking questions here, but do hope to contribute wherever I can. 

 

So in that vein, what would you recommend to commission in terms of surveys before purchasing a plot? As it already has PP there were obviously a number of reports submitted with the application, which we've been able to obtain. These include bat and badger survey, arboricultural survey, contamination report and a design and access statement. The plot is a former orchard, although most of the centre of the site has been cleared. There are a number of mature trees around the perimeter of the site, some of which are earmarked to be removed in the arboricultural report.  

 

I've already done a fair bit of research around services and have a quote for connecting the electricity supply. There's no mains sewerage so we'll need a treatment plant and no mains gas so we'll be looking at ASHP. I'm having difficulties getting a plan of the nearby water supply as Welsh Water, Severn Trent and United Utilities all say it is definitely not them and pass the buck to one of the others!

 

Any thoughts on the surveys would be really appreciated.

 

Thanks, Andrew

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Punter]

Can you find out about services from the seller of a neighbour?  Also, have they done a ground investigation to establish what foundation type you  are looking at?

[Andrew]

No soil survey yet, that's the main one I'm considering.

 

Seller says there is a water pipe running down the road but on opposite side of street. Haven't asked him about the water company, communication is very slow through the estate agent.

 

I want to get a bit further before talking to the neighbors. Both of the immediate neighbors strongly objected to the PP.

[ProDave]

Drainage is the key. If there is no mans sewer then you need a treatment plant. That has to drain somewhere. So you very first test is get some test pits dug and get a percolation test done. The results of that (and the size of the house) will tell you what area of infiltration field (soakaway) you need to provide. Then you need to work out if you have room for that and still have room to build a house.  Or are there alternative arangements like a soakaway under an adjoining field etc.

 

No drainage solution = no house so this is crucial.

[Andrew]

Thanks for the replies.

 

There is a small brook running down one of the boundaries to the plot and the rough plan was for the outflow from the treatment plan to run into there. I know other nearby properties do this.

 

However I haven't started doing any research into what's involved in terms of permissions, logistics, etc of doing this. It's not a massive plot so if that's not an option then there may be a problem.

[Jeremy Harris]

Welcome.

 

To discharge to the brook you need a licence from the Environment Agency.  Easy to get, and in our case very quick, as long as you can provide evidence that the brook never dries up.  If it does dry up a licence will be refused.

 

Check the utility provisions very carefully, and DO NOT trust your solicitor or the vendors agent - they will not have a clue.  In our case we found that the Wessex Water pipe running down the lane in front of our house was classified as a communication pipe, so we were not permitted to connect to it.  The only mains water alternative was to dig up 140m of single track lane and lay a new pipe to the main, at a cost of around £24,000.  In addition, the cost to connect to the main drain around 80m up the lane was an additional £14,000 for the road work, plus the cost of a pumping station on site, so around £18,000 all in.

 

We ended up with a borehole for water (half the cost of a mains water connection - but loads of hassle) and a treatment plant that discharges to the brook alongside the site (cost around £4,000, installed, including the road crossing for the outlet).

[Andrew]

Thanks, that's very helpful. I don't intend to complete the purchase of the land until we have definite info about the services. 

 

I've largely ignored openreach up to now. The village exchange is about 100m down the road, so I can't imagine any problem getting connected. Is that too naïve?

[Jeremy Harris]

Sadly, Openreach are a complete and total PITA.  They refuse to deal with self-builders, so there is no easy way to determine if there is spare capacity on the local network.  If you can obtain a number for the local Openreach engineer then you should find things easier.  The local guys are the only thing keeping their network running, I think, as their management is a bloody shambles.

[Barney12]

10 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Sadly, Openreach are a complete and total PITA.  They refuse to deal with self-builders, so there is no easy way to determine if there is spare capacity on the local network.  If you can obtain a number for the local Openreach engineer then you should find things easier.  The local guys are the only thing keeping their network running, I think, as their management is a bloody shambles.

 

Just to +1 what Jeremy has said.

If you spot an OpenLeach van in your local area. STOP. Talk to him and befriend him. 

 

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, Andrew said:

Thanks for the replies.

 

There is a small brook running down one of the boundaries to the plot and the rough plan was for the outflow from the treatment plan to run into there. I know other nearby properties do this.

 

However I haven't started doing any research into what's involved in terms of permissions, logistics, etc of doing this. It's not a massive plot so if that's not an option then there may be a problem.

You should be okay with that. Getting permission for discharge from the EA seems a whole lot easier than from SEPA up here in Scotland. I had so spend months proposing different schemes, which each got rejected before SEPA would give permission to discharge to the burn, something they only do here as a last resort.

[ToughButterCup]

Welcome.

All sensible advice above. One thing might have been missed; a topographical survey. Levels become incredibly important. We are on a gentle slope ; knowing how much of a slope helped us save several thousand pounds of topsoil removal fees.

Ian

[Ferdinand]

Make sure that the surveys are 'assigned' to you as part of the sale .. i.e. You become the client and get the benefit of the consultant's PII etc, and are able to use the reports without an extra fee.

 

Ferdinand

[Andrew]

12 hours ago, Barney12 said:

 

Just to +1 what Jeremy has said.

If you spot an OpenLeach van in your local area. STOP. Talk to him and befriend him. 

 

 

That's a really good idea, thanks. I will keep an eye out for OR vans and try to have a chat with the engineer when I see one.

[Andrew]

11 hours ago, recoveringacademic said:

Welcome.

All sensible advice above. One thing might have been missed; a topographical survey. Levels become incredibly important. We are on a gentle slope ; knowing how much of a slope helped us save several thousand pounds of topsoil removal fees.

Ian

 

Interesting point. The site seems generally quite flat and level, but it is slightly lower than the road / pavement level and there is an initial drop down when entering. I've no idea at the moment whether that's an issue or not. 

 

With regards to the survey, the site is only partial cleared at the moment. I've attached a photo to demonstrate, most of the site is like this, except for a corner which is still overgrown. Also, the photo was taken in May and things have grown a bit since then.

 

I had assumed the topographical survey would need to wait until the site is fully cleared? 

 

[Andrew]

11 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Make sure that the surveys are 'assigned' to you as part of the sale .. i.e. You become the client and get the benefit of the consultant's PII etc, and are able to use the reports without an extra fee.

 

Ferdinand

 

Thanks, that's a great suggestion.

 

I have asked the solicitors already to ensure that's done as part of the sale, but to be honest I don't think they know what I'm asking for or why. They seem to be treating it like just another normal house conveyance, which as @JSHarris mentions, means the onus is on us to make sure there are no nasty surprises.  

[Jeremy Harris]

Worth making sure all the boundaries are in the right place, too.  It seems that boundary errors on plots are fairly common, and it's worth checking that the actual plot boundaries coincide with the site plan on the planning permission and the Land Registry Title Plan.  The latter is not a legally binding definition of the boundary location, just a rough indicator, but there can be issues if there are gross errors.  We found that there was an error of around 5m on one of the boundaries of our plot, meaning the house that had planning permission couldn't actually be built, as part of it would have, apparently, been on land belonging to a neighbour (according to the Land Registry Title Plans for both properties).  That took a year to resolve - we had our offer accepted in October 2011 yet didn't get to complete the purchase until November 2012.

Edited August 4, 2017 by JSHarris

[Pete]

Order some Rosate of ebay. We did and it will kill almost everything and keep things in check while all the non-building work takes place.

[Ferdinand]

On 04/08/2017 at 09:11, Andrew said:

 

Thanks, that's a great suggestion.

 

I have asked the solicitors already to ensure that's done as part of the sale, but to be honest I don't think they know what I'm asking for or why. They seem to be treating it like just another normal house conveyance, which as @JSHarris mentions, means the onus is on us to make sure there are no nasty surprises.  

 

Returning to this.

 

I think you *may* be cruising for a bruising if you are using someone who is treating it like a bog-standard house conveyance - with all due respect to people who make their living doing routine transactions. Or is it a demolish-and-rebuild or a known-reliable plot?

 

On the other hand if you have emotionally already bought it then you may have gone past the point of no return in your head, even though you can withdraw your offer.

 

We missed assigning reports on our much larger project getting PP and selling a field to a developer, and it cost us £1000+ when the Housing Developer we were selling to made it a condition of sale. The project could take it, but it is a lesson learned. 

 

If you are not in a position to identify for your risks, by definition you cannot identify the costs in time and money to manage them, or the size of the risk package you are choosing to take on blind.

 

You may be OK, but there are any number of things that may be expensive to fix that you *could* negotiate on had you noticed them before you push the button, and here we can by definition only do personal opinions, albeit sometimes about specifics. The expensive uncertain stuff is the stuff underground, and that which is not identified on the standard bits of paper or may only appear in searches after you have started spending money on solicitors so already have some downside to withdrawing.

 

If you do not have a suitably experienced solicitor/conveyancer and it is not , then I would suggest that you consider rapidly building up some hinterland yourself (books etc), or hiring a local professional to do a sanity check / elephant-trap hunt for you.

 

For that route, you probably want the old and qualified experienced person from the backroom of the local independent estate agent - 10 years local experience ideally. You would get a 15 minute scoping conversation free first ... and they may be able to say "there be dragons" or "plots down there are usually OK" on the spot from having dealt with one eg 17 years ago.

 

When does PP run out?

 

One key questions is .. why are they selling it? If it is obviously just to make money then that is comforting, as is the fact that it has full PP.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

+1 to what @Ferdinand has said, particularly about conveyancing.  When buying a plot, the legal considerations are different.  You need to be assured that the boundaries are in exactly the right place, that the planning permission as granted can be implemented, that the site can be provided with services at a reasonable cost, that there are no underlying issues such as soil contamination, services crossing under the land, covenants that are restrictive in terms of development, planning conditions that are reasonable and can be met (and are acceptable to you), access that is free from constraints, such as a ransom strip, plus a few more.  Few of these aspects would be routinely checked by a normal house conveyancing person (and most conveyancing isn't actually undertaken by a solicitor). 

 

I found that our solicitor had missed several key points on our purchase, but I was pre-warned, as we had tried to buy a plot of land elsewhere a few months earlier, and that had a lot of problems that highlighted the deficiencies in a normal conveyancing approach.

[ToughButterCup]

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

[...]

For that route, you probably want the old and qualified experienced person from the backroom of the local independent estate agent - 10 years local experience ideally. You would get a 15 minute scoping conversation free first ... and they may be able to say "there be dragons" or "plots down there are usually OK" on the spot from having dealt with one eg 17 years ago.

[...]

 

and / or

A self-employed planner who really knows her oats. The gender choice is deliberate. Women are far more capable at focusing on detail; nitty gritty detail. And thats exactly what you need now. You need someone who can answer this question simply , honestly, quickly,  first.

On 03/08/2017 at 17:23, Andrew said:

[...]

It's quite a traditional design and we're uncertain at the moment whether we are going to try to modify the existing permission or start again with a new design, but we'll get to that once we've got the land purchased. 

[...]

 

 

Why? Because your design taste will be changed by the process of planning for building it. Exactly the same way that drinking cheap red wine , with persistence, evolves into the odd glass of serious claret.

 

Research the planner market. Do that by reading widely. Read the  Design Access statements` they have written. Does the statement show a well-argued narrative? Or is it sloppy / slapdash? Waste time with many local estate agents.  Encourage indiscretion on their part; and remember those who refused. Network like mad.

 

Then interview one or two. Trust those who want a small amount of cash up front for a quick, straight opinion. And then employ the one who impresses you most. 

 

But solve the water supply issue first. There is a long cautionary tale about that to be found on @JSHarris blog.

[Andrew]

Thanks for the advice and suggestions.

 

The PP runs out in October 2019. 

 

It's probably too early to tell with the solicitors - my observations so far are based on the standard letters / documentation they've sent. They don't have the contract from the sellers solicitor yet and I hope that once we get a bit further they will prove to be competent. I did speak to several solicitors and made a selection based on their knowledge, professionalism and frankly how easy it was to communicate with them. I do accept that, correct or not, it's my responsibility to ensure all the bases are covered and risks that it's possible to know about have been identified. @JSHarris - thank you for the list of considerations, all are covered or under investigation. 

 

I am going to commission a soil survey before purchase - if anything untoward is identified then it will give me cause to re-negotiate. There is quite a lot of recent development in the village, including plots across the road and a new house being built in an immediate neighbours garden. That gives some reassurance that there are no fundamental issues, but I appreciate conditions can change in a short distance, hence the survey. 

 

I am unsure about a topographical survey - I think the site probably needs to be cleared before we cans do this but I'm going to speak to a local survey company later today and see what they say. 

 

I have done a considerable amount of reading, including the Housebuilder's Bible from cover to cover. I've also spoken with anyone who will give me the time of day, including local estate agents (mainly to get an idea of potential value, to assist in my negotiations on the price), the local council building control office to get any insight they may have, the architect who put together the PP submission (obviously working for the vendor) and some of the builders working on the nearby developments. One challenge we do have is that we currently live 100 miles away from the plot, but will move up before starting any work. 

 

 

On 06/08/2017 at 08:25, recoveringacademic said:

Why? Because your design taste will be changed by the process of planning for building it. Exactly the same way that drinking cheap red wine , with persistence, evolves into the odd glass of serious claret.

 

Because the PP came with the plot. The architect who produced the design for the PP told me himself it was the simplest, most uncontroversial design they could muster to get through planning. There were issues with planning, not with the design, but a question of whether the site was within the built up envelope of the village. It was granted on appeal. 

 

As there's no guarantee another design would get through planning we asked ourselves would we be happy with the house as it was currently designed - the answer was yes, but with some changes to the internal layout which we confirmed wouldn't be an issue.

 

However if we sat down with a blank piece of paper the house that has planning is not the house we would come up with. Like everything there are many considerations, including

- the house needs to be designed for the plot (the current design sits pretty well on the plot), the likelihood of a new PP submission being approved, the impact on timescale and finally the impact of cost. We have had the current design costed by an estimator service, so we know in theory what the build costs could be. We have a (starting) budget and timescale in mind so when we have the land purchased we will work with an architect or designer to help us, taking into account the constraints, decide what the best way to proceed is. 

 

 

On 06/08/2017 at 08:25, recoveringacademic said:

But solve the water supply issue first. There is a long cautionary tale about that to be found on @JSHarris blog.

 

I had a breakthrough on Friday, United Utilities fessed up to being the supplier. A plan is on its way and I'll also get a full quote for the connection. 

 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

It sounds as though you are taking your risk / opportunity -assessment very seriously, which is excellent, 

 

On 07/08/2017 at 11:23, Andrew said:

I am unsure about a topographical survey - I think the site probably needs to be cleared before we cans do this but I'm going to speak to a local survey company later today and see what they say. 

 

They probably could - it is not difficult to apply a staff to the ground through a bush or twenty. And topos are an inexpensive one to do.

 

On 07/08/2017 at 11:23, Andrew said:

As there's no guarantee another design would get through planning we asked ourselves would we be happy with the house as it was currently designed - the answer was yes, but with some changes to the internal layout which we confirmed wouldn't be an issue.

 

Your position is stronger in that the principle of development is conceded for that site, and that entrances etc are approved - so those are elephant traps which have been filled in.

 

And October 2019 is comfortingly far away for you to try Plan B before Plan A turns back into a pumpkin.Assuming the purchase happens quickly-ish.

 

You should also be able to reuse some of the reports with no even potential problems due to expiry dates etc (even though the LPA are very unlikely indeed to notice). If you have problems with assignment of report you could possibly use weasel wording such as "a previous report on this site found that...".

 

Ferdinand

 

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Ferdinand