Architects, self-build involvement, roles and responsibilities

[Drellingore]

What ways are there of interacting with architects and main contractors? Are there a few common patterns, and can anyone point me in the direction of a few write-ups of them? I can imagine two extremes:

• architect does everything with a little input and a couple of years later you move in;
• we do absolutely everything from drawing the designs, digging the foundations, laying the tiles, and not paying anyone else to do anything

 

It's the bit in the middle of that spectrum that I'm curious about. I think we want to have (quite a bit of) input into the design, manage procurement of contracts and materials, project manage, and occasionally get involved in unskilled manual labour.

 

We've got a plot with two barns to convert, and the development principle established in a prior, lapsed, planning decision. We've been pursuing a bonkers scheme that is going to committee, and almost certainly will fail (I wanted to test the limits). We now need to come up with something more sensible and conventional, and get it built.

 

My other half has done bachelors' degrees in interior design and architecture (so part 1), and has always wanted to build her own house. Almost all the drawings in our bonkers-and-not-going-to-get-approved-scheme are hers, as she's a dab hand with AutoCAD and uses it professionally daily, and she works on designing and refitting investment bank offices. She can't do technical design, and isn't qualified to. Conceptual stuff and spacial coordination: yes; being sure the thing is going to stand up and creating 'full information' for a main contractor: no.

 

I've run a few businesses, with about 30 staff around the world, and some big banking and tech clients. I'm used to running multi-million pound projects and contracts, hiring and firing, ensuring compliance to ridiculous bureaucratic policies, and all that jazz. I'm funemployed at the moment, and am happy to stay that way until the build is done. However, the pain of working on a project with my other half is certainly making me reconsider that!

 

We started talking to architects that we found online, and via RIBA's Find-an-Architect service. Unsurprisingly, the missus likes the really expensive artsy ones. They have generally given us fee proposals that are 'turn-key' offerings, where they'll do absolutely everything from conceiving the master plan to running the tendering process, procuring all the things, and whatnot.

 

There's going to be a tension where artsy architects want to design the whole thing, but the wife will want lots of creative input. Architects are going to want to source their own contractor so they get someone that they can work with, and that they are sure can do the job. They'll probably want to procure all the materials for the same reason. Both the missus and I have professional experience that we're fairly sure we can put to good use, and it seems daft paying lots of fees to an architect for something we can just about to do ourselves, and more to the point, want to do so we have a sense of ownership. We're not the sort that want to hand over some money and have someone hand over a finished house.

 

We're due to have a conversation with everyone in our shortlist about what we'd rather do ourselves, but my lack of knowledge in the area means I'm lacking the vocabulary to do it convincingly. I'm also wondering if architects are really the best solution to this problem and whether there is some other set of professionals who would be more appropriate. 

 

Any thoughts or suggestions? I realise the ask here is a bit vague, and it's not helped by the stress of working with the other half whilst simultaneously trying to navigate the minefield of her pride in her ideas.

[SteamyTea]

TL;DR

 

Architects will do anything for payment.

 

Well I say anything, maybe less than you expect, then hide behind their professional organisation terms of contract.  But look on the bright side, they will still charge you the same for half the job, so you know were you stand.

[Kelvin]

How big and complicated is it? 
 

Ours is two square boxes and no complex detailing or foundations despite being on a slope. Consequently I felt confident to manage it all myself and so far so good. The kit company pushed us to employ their QS but his fees were horrendous adding another £15k in cost for something I could and have done myself but then it’s a kit I’m building so a third of the build is done by others. 

The approach we’ve taken is I am PM and my other half is the client. Clearly I have a stake in the decision making but this approach has meant I’ve been able to create a bit of distance between the problems that have cropped up and the decisions to make. That is to say we hit a problem, I research it and present my client with some options with pros and cons. However despite us both getting on with each other very well it has still led to the odd row 😂 

 

Ultimately you know yourselves best. The more control you hand to other people the more you’ll need to accept they’ll make decisions about your house. Neither of you sound as if this is something you’d be happy with. 

 

[Dunc]

We've been having conversations with architects very recently. All the architects I've spoken to are perfectly happy with working with me to get through the design stages then leave it to me to sort a timberframe company, ground workers, follow on trades, materials etc. so are definitely not locked in to the idea of managing a turnkey service.

 

Those I've spoken to work to the RIBA stages so you only committ to each stage sequentially.

(https://www.architecture.com/knowledge-and-resources/resources-landing-page/riba-plan-of-work)

 

So for us (without a detailed design in mind) we would first commission and pay for a design through to planning permission.

Then we could choose to part ways, or commission through to building warrant.

Then we could choose to part ways, or commission through tendering out to builders

...etc etc.

The quotes I have are provided broken down in to these stages. They are also avaialable on an hourly rate (seems to be around £100/hr) for support and advice as needed.

 

The architects do seem to expect to deal with arranging engineers as required for each stage (e.g. site investigations, topo survey, SE) but the engineering fees are paid directly to the engineers as far as I can tell.

 

The quotes I have are all eyewateringly expensive (~£50K to get through to building warrant approval) except for one guy who is an Architectural Technician and seems much more reasonable (~£18K), but offers much less in the way of "initial ideas". I'd suggest if you have a very good idea of what you want, looking for a Technician rather than RIBA Architect may be significanlty cheaper.

[Bitpipe]

We used a good local architect to design and take through planning (which took a few goes). There were some issues, like traffic management etc, that were not part of the house design per see but needed satisfied and the practice had expertise on hand to address. They also knew how to navigate around the planners and deal with the games played which we would have been too inexperienced to do.

 

Once we had an approved plan we took control and acted as the PMs - discharging conditions, getting quotes, managing suppliers etc. We stayed on good terms with the architect but felt that his services post planning were expensive and more associated with traditional build methods and a single contractor approach (detailed designs, tenders etc). We commissioned our own SE to design the basement & ground elements and used a turnkey TF supplier who did included detailed design and SE for their elements. We used a private building control firm to handle that side of things.

 

Really depends on where your skills and comfort levels are at. Some builders here never used architects at all and some use them right into completion.

[Ralph]

We used RIAS Scottish Conditions of Appointment of an Architect - Small Project Version ASP/2018 you'll find a copy online the English version will probably be the same. 

We went through the Schedule of Services and took a pick and mix approach to what was on on offer from the stages below. Although it was classed as a full service approach

I would have said the architect took the lead for Stages 1 and 2 then it was over to the Architectural technician for the rest. There is a load of Additional Services that can be added to the below if required. 

 

We then agreed a fixed fee and off we went. This all really paid for itself when the builder went in breach of contract then tits up.

 

Preparing the Design
Work Stage 1.0 – Preparation of the Brief
1.1 Ascertain Client Requirements
1.2 Obtain Site information from Client
1.3 Advise Client of his/her duties under CDM regulations
1.4 Visit Site and carry out preliminary appraisal
1.5 Identify Project and Construction Budgets
1.6 Develop outline brief
1.7 Agree Preliminary timetable

 

Work Stage 2.0 – Initial Design
2.1 Prepare initial design proposal
2.2 Provide indicative guidance on cost and timetable

 

Work Stage 3.0 – To Planning Consent Application
3.1 Consult with Local Authorities and Utilities as required 
3.2 Progress Stage 2.1 design
3.3 Prepare application for Planning Permission
3.4 Submit application for Planning permission
3.5 Advise on procurement methods
3.6 Report on timetable, agree revisions

 

Work Stage 4.0 – To Building Warrant Application
4.1 Progress Stage 3.2 design
4.2 Co-ordinate work of other consultants
4.3 Report on timetable, agree revisions
4.4 Prepare Warrant Application
4.5 Submit Warrant Application

 

Preparing the build

Work Stage 5.0 – Construction Documentation
5.1 Advise on and agree form of Building Contract, including Contract Administrator
5.2 Prepare drawings, schedules and specifications sufficient for tender
5.3 Co-ordinate information from other consultants, specialist designers and contractors
5.4 Prepare Description of Work

Work Stage 6.0 – Tender Administration
6.1 Compile list of Contractors, if applicable
6.2 Assemble tender documentation including Bills of Quantity or Schedules of Rates etc. prepared by others
6.3 Issue tenders to contractors for pricing
6.4 Take delivery of, and report on tenders
6.5 Advise on appointment of contractor
6.6 Agree frequency and scope of site inspections Progressing the build

Work Stage 7.0 – Contract Administration
7.1 Administer the Contract
7.2 Attend Progress Meetings on site
7.3 Inspect the works as necessary to administer the Contract, review progress and quality in terms of the building contract
7.4 Issue instructions to the contractor for variations to the contract when approved by the client
7.5 Report on Stages 7.1, 7.2, 7.3 and 7.4
7.6 Advise client of when works are practically complete for handover

Work Stage 8.0 – Post Completion Work
8.1 Advise Contractor of any defects
8.2 Administer the contract to final account

Edited April 13, 2023 by Ralph

[Kelvin]

We have done stages 1-5 with the timber kit company although stage 5 is split in two with them doing all that for the kit build and erection and me doing it for everything else including groundworks. 
 

I organised some of the consultants myself as part of my due diligence when buying the land. 
 

 

[saveasteading]

Same in England. 

https://www.architecture.com/knowledge-and-resources/resources-landing-page/riba-plan-of-work

 

I would also say.

1. Make sure they have done buildings very like you want, with references. Because most Architects will take any work...a very self confident profession. 

2. Within the scope of work, ask precisely what other professions will be needed and cost guidance. Because some will include ancillary design such as traffic acess, energy, working details and others will hive it off at your expense.

3. What happens if there is a planning issue? How do they deal with the time and costs?

4. There are contractors who will do turnkey including planning and design. Typically the same cost but they are taking much of the risk off you.

5 The most expensive iption is to stage 8, but also a turnkey contractor.  Easy for the Architect.

6. There are lots out there. Speak to 4 or 5. If it doesn't click try 4 or 5 more.

7 cheaper does not mean worse...they might  just bd very good at it...and vice versa.

 

I could go on.

[ToughButterCup]

2 hours ago, Drellingore said:

What ways are there of interacting with architects and main contractors?....

 

Here's how our architect approached the issue. 

 

 

[saveasteading]

7 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

interacting with architects

There was once a thing called RIBA Fee Scales. It was banned as being anticompetitive. You can find plenty of examples online, for individual consultants. It is a handy indicator of the cost IF you know the build cost....but it has not been designed yet.

Worth looking though.

 

Is it sensible that the fee increases with the cost? No. So a fixed fee is needed.

 

8. Always good fun.

Brief the Architect on what you want and whether they are encouraged to experiment and use flair, or not.

Tell them your absolute budget to include all fees.

it is common to only quote the build cost, ie excl fees.

Ask what happens if their design cannot be done for the stated budget, which is a critical term of the contract (if it is). Is their fee forfeit, or do they rededign for no charge?    Sounds over harsh but word it your own way. Then prepare for ashen face or some woffle about contractors and their pricing.

 

One architect said to me " the client always finds more money". Beware.

But there are plenty good ones, tho not cheap where you are.

 

[Drellingore]

Ta very much, all. It's reassuring to hear that quite a few folks have successfully taken a pick-and-mix approach (although maybe there's a selection bias here).

[Kelvin]

9 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

 

 

One architect said to me " the client always finds more money". Beware.

But there are plenty good ones, tho not cheap where you are.

 

Standard real estate line as well. 

[Kelvin]

5 minutes ago, Drellingore said:

Ta very much, all. It's reassuring to hear that quite a few folks have successfully taken a pick-and-mix approach (although maybe there's a selection bias here).

Defo selection bias as all the self-builder friends we have simply agreed a fixed price with the builder and let them get on with it. They only made decisions about bathrooms and kitchens and even then it was a choice from a list. 
 

 

[Bitpipe]

Also, make sure it's clear from the outset who owns the design and ask upfront for the DWG files to be part of the deliverable at each stage. 

 

Having these made our life so much easier as we were able to pass them to the TF and basement SE and also used them ourselves (using a free cad package) to take measurements, check site dimensions etc.

[Drellingore]

52 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

we were able to pass them to the TF

 

Wots a TF?

[saveasteading]

Timber frame

[ToughButterCup]

Timber Frame

The  F-- uck

Tomorrow's Friday

 

 

[saveasteading]

Ask how they design. Some, mostly younger  go straight into 3d. The better the design suite the more it can handle every detail as a complete model ( ie not pictures but working drawings).

Revit , for example,  is superb.

 

[Drellingore]

Have many people here worked with an architect on an "as required" basis? Ie on an hourly rate pulling them in as-and-when they're needed only, as opposed to them being responsible for everything from the beginning?

 

On 13/04/2023 at 17:10, saveasteading said:

Revit , for example,  is superb.

 

I'd love to be using a proper BIM solution - it appeals to the software engineer in me.

[saveasteading]

1 minute ago, Drellingore said:

love to be using a proper BIM solution

Then demand it. As long as it is in-house and how they design, not subbed out.

It is more than cool, as it avoids the common issues of 'pictures' that don't make sense in 3d.

I once got a job where the original architect had dummy chimneys but our revit rerun showed them to be in 2 places in space (and time ?)

Saves money later when construction details are easily changed and any implications are found and dealt with.

The licence costs thousands, so some one man bands stick to the old ways.

[IanR]

1 hour ago, Drellingore said:

Have many people here worked with an architect on an "as required" basis? Ie on an hourly rate pulling them in as-and-when they're needed only, as opposed to them being responsible for everything from the beginning?

 

Yep. Architect (for some PH detailing), SE, Planning Consultant, Drainage Engineer all contracted time & materials.

 

Timber frame design, insulated raft Design and PHPP consultant were fixed price, deliverables based.

 

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

1 hour ago, Drellingore said:

I'd love to be using a proper BIM solution - it appeals to the software engineer in me.

 

Then demand it. As long as it is in-house and how they design, not subbed out.

 

That would seriously reduce your options, for a self-build and cost you a premium. Makes a lot of sense though for large commercial projects.

 

All my engineering design services were using different systems and formats and only the frame design was in 3D. The SE was free-hand sketches. I acted as the conduit for passing data (and converting formats) between the service providers.

[Kelvin]

On 13/04/2023 at 15:25, Bitpipe said:

Also, make sure it's clear from the outset who owns the design and ask upfront for the DWG files to be part of the deliverable at each stage. 

 

Having these made our life so much easier as we were able to pass them to the TF and basement SE and also used them ourselves (using a free cad package) to take measurements, check site dimensions etc.

Great point. I asked for these too. Normally they don’t provide them but they have been invaluable not least for the accuracy of our foundation and the wells for the steels but also for accurate measuring using the free CAD software you’re probably using too. 

[Kelvin]

My FiL (sadly departed) was an architect and working up until his 80s. He drew everything by hand and for the nicer builds did a watercolour painting of the build as he was a very good artist too. Most of his customers were ancient too. 

[Bitpipe]

On 20/04/2023 at 11:55, Kelvin said:

Great point. I asked for these too. Normally they don’t provide them but they have been invaluable not least for the accuracy of our foundation and the wells for the steels but also for accurate measuring using the free CAD software you’re probably using too. 

 

Yup - I was able to share with my own SE and the timber frame firm and it made life a lot easier. I'm sure they could have replicated from the planning PDFs but was useful noodling around with them myself.

[saveasteading]

On 20/04/2023 at 11:55, Kelvin said:

Normally they don’t provide them but

Yes but...

 

As a designer and contractor we never used drawings provided by the client. 

By this stage their previous consultants were probably not involved.

 

There was too much risk of errors which would become our problem.

However, if we provided our cad drawings to our SE ( I sublet most of it for client comfort) then they would use it happily. 

Likewise suppliers with design input were happy to use them.

 

So yes, ask for them, but they may decline because of potential liability for dimensional errors.

 

This happened before cad. One Architect colleague would draw precisely but then trace as if freehand.

Another Architect drew in pencil, and studiously removed all dimensions before handing over as "client's requirements".