Commencement before New Building Regulations re-submission?

[Deejay_2]

Diary of Events

June/July 2022

Plng approval and Bld Regs app for detached double garage with granny flat attached.

Sept 2022

Bld inspector visited site – said we would need filled trenches to prove commencement. Decided to put things on hold due to situation with economy.

Feb 2023

Received new plng approval with small changeswhich led to my emailing Senior BC Officer re amended plans and putting things on hold. This resulted in him emailing back, from which I quote”

 

“Once you are in a position to commence please let us know, works will require to commence within 3 years of the application being approved or additional fees may be incurred (Commence means some footings dug out or drainage laid.).”

 

March 2023

This has resulted in our rethinking commencing the work before our one year transition period runs out (14 June 2023). 1 checked with original Inspector and he agrees we can lay the drainage trench to prove we have started and we feel we should go ahead with this but before I rush into things I am concerned that this could be a mistake. So I have the following questions:

 

1 The attached plan shows the position of the main drain running along the back of the building (west facing wall) and along the north facing wall from the kitchen. Is the plan clear enough for the groundworking company to work from or do I need to get a specialist drainage plan done?

2 The drainage trench will presumably not be as deep as the footings trench (1.2m min). Will the drainage trench cause problems when the digger digs out the western wall foundation trench?

3. I assume we will need to put pea gravel into the drainage trench and install all the required drainage pipes. Then refill the trench with the manhole covers etc already in situ.

4 Whilst the digger is on site we shall also do some stump removal, get a soil test and percolation test done.

 

Have I understood the process correctly? Any advice would be greatly appreciated as this could be a costly mistake and I wonder why the original Inspector didn’t suggest this when he visited last year.

 

Are we sensible doing this to get things started in order to avoid having to redo and resubmit plans under the new Building Regulations in the future, or could doing this create more problems when we return to start the job in the future.

Drainage for commencement_20230406_0001.pdf

[Mr Punter]

It will be easier to get the foundations done first.  If you start putting in drains, then dig foundations around them they will get wrecked.

[ToughButterCup]

What constitute a 'start'? Find out what that really means locally.

Different LPAs have different understandings.  It could be as little as erect a small brick shed for your temporary electricity meter. Ask local builders what actually happens.

I would not take anything any BCO says at face value. Nothing. Especially not on something with so much expenditure hanging on the outcome of discussions. You need to find independent substantiation for what your BCO has told you.

 

(Full disclosure, I have recently been having an argument with our BCO - failure to keep discussion notes, inappropriate communication and unwarranted threats of legal  action)

 

In any case you have 3 full years in which to show 'commencement': July 2025. (July 2022 + 3 years)

 

 

[Deejay_2]

21 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

It will be easier to get the foundations done first.  If you start putting in drains, then dig foundations around them they will get wrecked.

 

[Deejay_2]

21 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

It will be easier to get the foundations done first.  If you start putting in drains, then dig foundations around them they will get wrecked.

Thank you.  This is what occurred to me.  The email from the Senior BC officer doesn't mention the actual drain 'furniture', and neither did the other Building Inspector.  I am wondering whether we could

1  Just dig the trench and put the pea gravel in and then either cover it over with something, or fill it back in after inspection

2  Or alternatively dig out one of the 1.2 m foundation trenches and cover it which would be less desirable. 

We only have until June 14th 2023 to implement commencement before we have to resubmit everything under the new Building Regulations (altho I don't know what this will involve). 

So if we undertake item 1 can you see any future problems arising from this.

Many thanks for your input.

[Deejay_2]

21 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

What constitute a 'start'? Find out what that really means locally.

Different LPAs have different understandings.  It could be as little as erect a small brick shed for your temporary electricity meter. Ask local builders what actually happens.

I would not take anything any BCO says at face value. Nothing. Especially not on something with so much expenditure hanging on the outcome of discussions. You need to find independent substantiation for what your BCO has told you.

 

(Full disclosure, I have recently been having an argument with our BCO - failure to keep discussion notes, inappropriate communication and unwarranted threats of legal  action)

 

In any case you have 3 full years in which to show 'commencement': July 2025. (July 2022 + 3 years)

 

 

Absolutely agree.  My experiences with every so called "professional" including architect and draughtsman have been woeful so far and this is why this site is so helpful.

We managed to submit and get approval for our Building Regs plans before the Regs changed in June 2022 - we were give a year's transitionary period to commence so only have until the end of May 2023 to start the work.

[kandgmitchell]

Deejay - you do have a little longer. Assuming you either deposited plans with a local authority or gave an Initial Notice to a local authority via an Approved Inspector prior to the 15th June 2022 then you have until June 15th 2023 to commence work on the building in order to avoid compliance with the post June 2022 revisions to the Bldg Regs.

[ETC]

Try this:

 

Dig a small (foundation) trench - say about 4m long - possibly a couple of metres from the correct location of a gable wall.

 

The  BCO will inspect the trench and deem the works to have started and will record that the foundation trench does not comply (insufficient amount of foundation trench excavated to warrant compliant works). The fact that it is in the wrong location is immaterial - BCO couldn’t care less where you build it as long as it’s in the same general location.

 

Once the BCO has left the site fill the trench in. Job done - application commenced.

 

PS - Expect to get an Inspection Fee Invoice in the post if your fees were split into plan fee and inspection fee.

[Deejay_2]

On 10/04/2023 at 19:29, ETC said:

Try this:

 

Dig a small (foundation) trench - say about 4m long - possibly a couple of metres from the correct location of a gable wall.

 

The  BCO will inspect the trench and deem the works to have started and will record that the foundation trench does not comply (insufficient amount of foundation trench excavated to warrant compliant works). The fact that it is in the wrong location is immaterial - BCO couldn’t care less where you build it as long as it’s in the same general location.

 

Once the BCO has left the site fill the trench in. Job done - application commenced.

 

PS - Expect to get an Inspection Fee Invoice in the post if your fees were split into plan fee and inspection fee.

I have only just read this and am now trying to get my head around what you mean. 

 

We intend having a chat with the groundworker company next week about a price for

1. digging a 9 m trench (1 m deep at this stage) which would be the trench used in the future for the northern wall of the building. 
2. removing some tree stumps and
3. digging a couple of trial holes to determine the soil structure for when the remaining foundation trenches are dug in the future. 
4. Carry out a percolation te

I assume the groundworker would have to set out the site to ensure the correct position of the trench - at this stage would this involve removing the existing lawn and top soil to level the site or can they just dig the trench.

 

What you suggest would be less work but why would we dig the trench in the wrong place and would they accept only 4 m.

 

Also would digging the trench satisfy Planning that we have started.

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

[ETC]

8 hours ago, Deejay_2 said:

I have only just read this and am now trying to get my head around what you mean. 

 

We intend having a chat with the groundworker company next week about a price for

1. digging a 9 m trench (1 m deep at this stage) which would be the trench used in the future for the northern wall of the building. 
2. removing some tree stumps and
3. digging a couple of trial holes to determine the soil structure for when the remaining foundation trenches are dug in the future. 
4. Carry out a percolation te

I assume the groundworker would have to set out the site to ensure the correct position of the trench - at this stage would this involve removing the existing lawn and top soil to level the site or can they just dig the trench.

 

What you suggest would be less work but why would we dig the trench in the wrong place and would they accept only 4 m.

 

Also would digging the trench satisfy Planning that we have started.

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

From memory I wrote this in response to being able to commence a building project as cheaply as possible without having to commit to getting a project built.

 

If you just want to “commence” the works, have proof that you have done so and postpone the works for a period of time just dig a trench straight through the grass - no need to strip the top soil or grass away.

 

Once BC have “commenced” the works you can fill in the trench.

 

Digging the trench in the “wrong” place ticks the box for BC but makes sure that the “real” trench(es) won’t be compromised if left undeveloped for a period of time.

 

You will have to speak to your local BC and Planning Departments in relation to what they deem a “commencement” to be.

 

Where I am what I have described is adequate for our BC to determine that the project has commenced. Our Planning Department will accept the BC commencement as their commencement too.

 

I wouldn’t think the ground workers will mark out the building. They may do but in my experience they turn up and expect the house to be marked out.

 

 

[Deejay_2]

10 hours ago, ETC said:

From memory I wrote this in response to being able to commence a building project as cheaply as possible without having to commit to getting a project built.

 

If you just want to “commence” the works, have proof that you have done so and postpone the works for a period of time just dig a trench straight through the grass - no need to strip the top soil or grass away.

 

Once BC have “commenced” the works you can fill in the trench.

 

Digging the trench in the “wrong” place ticks the box for BC but makes sure that the “real” trench(es) won’t be compromised if left undeveloped for a period of time.

 

You will have to speak to your local BC and Planning Departments in relation to what they deem a “commencement” to be.

 

Where I am what I have described is adequate for our BC to determine that the project has commenced. Our Planning Department will accept the BC commencement as their commencement too.

 

I wouldn’t think the ground workers will mark out the building. They may do but in my experience they turn up and expect the house to be marked out.

 

 

Thank you - that's really helpful.

 

You are right, we just want to be deemed to have commenced before 15 June.   I have emailed the BC officer I spoke to outlining our intentions to make sure we have confirmation in writing.  He was the one who originally said we had to do all the trenches with concrete to prove we had started work.  It's his senior colleague's recent email that has prompted us to have "another go" as this cheaper route enables us to commence within our current financial restraints. 

 

Thank you once again as your response has been really helpful and reassuring.   

[ETC]

Good luck.

[Deejay_2]

I have had a response from the Building Inspector who has agreed we can dig a foundation trench for one length of the proposed building to deem to have commenced work. 

We shall also be removing tree stumps and digging trial holes.

I have contacted a surveyor with a Total Station for a price for setting out.  At this point in time we are just wanting to commence work (before 15 June) so my question is:

Do we need to have the site scraped before setting out and foundation trench dug.    The site is currently lawned and fairly flat.  We would like to keep to a minimum of work but don't want to cause problems later down the line by cutting corners.

Thank you for any advice.

 

[Deejay_2]

Sorry I'm back again!   I have spoken to the groundwork company and he feels it's probably a mistake to dig the trench and backfill and that we should concrete the trench.  I said this would involve a large concrete lorry and pump (difficult access) just for one trench, when all we are trying to achieve is to "commence work".

I asked him about covering the excavated trench with heavyweight plastic sheeting and he said the trench will still fall in if it rains heavily. 

Anyway he has agreed to come and do the work before 15 June and NOT to refill the trench.  I am therefore unsure about what would be best:

1    Would we be better backfilling the trench - it may be 6+ months before we return to complete the foundations.  Would this make it more difficult for the groundworkers.

2    If we don't backfill, would strong plastic sheeting preserve the trench, held down with heavy stones, of which we have many.

I hope someone has time to give their opinion/advice on this as I'm very unsure what to do.

Many thanks

[saveasteading]

6 minutes ago, Deejay_2 said:

If we don't backfill, would strong plastic sheeting preserve the trench

Possibly. But it would be dangerous to fall into. Also the base of the trench will soften and more need to be taken out later. Backfill but loosely? Ie no need to compact it. You will have about 1/4 of the earth left over.

[kandgmitchell]

Ditto saveasteading. Leave the open trench for 6+ months and the sides will have fallen in, the bottom will have softened up and you have a falling risk for persons and wildlife. Getting a machine back close to that to clean it up may be tricky. Save the carting away and put the dig back in for now would be my approach.

[Kelvin]

Has the BCO told you that you need to dig the actual trench for an elevation of the house or can you do what’s been suggested above and simply dig a trench somewhere near (but not where you are actually building)  show them the open trench and fill it back after. 
 

In my case forming the site access and about 5m of drive seemed to be enough to start commencement. I didn’t think it was but BCO was happy enough. 

[ProDave]

51 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

In my case forming the site access and about 5m of drive seemed to be enough to start commencement. I didn’t think it was but BCO was happy enough. 

Me too. Perhaps that is a Scottish thing?

 

I had a planning condition that the road access onto the site must be formed before any other work commenced (presumably to avoid vehicles parking on the road) and I had to notify the planners when we started.  So I notified them when I had started building the site access and they replied in writing saying the development had commenced.  That on it's own would have locked in the planning permission.

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

Perhaps that is a Scottish thing?

It varies. On our project the original owner did this and got an official certificate to confirm the project was commenced as far as  planning was concerned.

 

In the past i used to put up site level control posts, paint them red and white and send photos to the planner. They dont accept that any longer.

 

I had a project (English) that was coming close to the 3 years but client still wanted to delay. I discussed with the bco what he regarded as sufficient to constitute commencement. He suggested drains or a foundation, but that required detailed design, which we would have to do and present and get checked..that is the downside  of the trench, if you don't have the building designed above it.

 

So we agreed that stripping the site and hardcoring would do for the work. But we also submitted a section of drain design so had something technical to approve.  That way we had correspondence and a site apptoval visit....but had to pay half his fee.

 

That to show that sometimes a lot is required. If your bco ssys doing a footing is enough then go for it.

 

I wouldn't dig a useless trench nearby. It isn't part of the work and an astute bco would know.

 

So if, and only if, you know the position , depth and width of a footing, then i think i would concrete it.

Just a 3m section or so perhaps. 

 

3m x 0.6 x 0.6 = 1m3 of concrete approx. The builder can mix that on site, so no access issues.

[Deejay_2]

Thank you for your replies.  The BCO has confirmed in writing that excavating a trench is sufficient but it has to be the whole length of the trench.  We have the size of the trench which is 9m L x 600 w x 1 m deep.  We will also remove tree stumps and do trial holes and the BCO said he will advise at his site inspection re soakaway requirements, if any.  It is an opportunity to do a soil test and have some preparation done for when we eventually start the build. 

 

I am awaiting an estimate from the groundwork company but in our tel con he seemed to be advising against refilling the trench with soil and suggested concreting it.  My feeling is to do as little as possible at this stage ie less to go wrong/rectify in the future.  Therefore I think partial backfilling,as previously advised, is the way to go and then cover the trench with substantial sheeting.   We can make the final decision on this, I would think, by discussing with the BCO on his inspection. 

 

There is no danger of anyone falling in because of the site's position.

 

It's been really helpful getting the views of experienced members.  Any further comments regarding my intentions outlined above would give me further reassurance as time is now running out.

 

Many many thanks.