Window Quality

[Triassic]

We visited a U.K. Window manufacturer yesterday, as part of which we had a look round the factory and saw first hand the production process close up, all very interesting. However the one thing that struck me was the lack of attention to detail, things like poor paint finish, machine marks showing through the paint, knots and indentations in the timber showing, Ali cladding corners not finished to eliminate sharp edges.

 

A background check suggests the company went through a serious 'restructuring' last year, I know why! Quality and finish sells, but not in this case.

[ProDave]

There is a triple glazed window manufacturer 20 miles from me. I wanted to support them and use their products, but their EX vat price was more than the inc VAT and delivery price of my Austrian windows, and they would not negotiate.

[ToughButterCup]

5 hours ago, Triassic said:

[...], I know why! Quality and finish sells, but not in this case.

 

That's a great shame.

I would happily have bought from a UK manufacturer. In my recent experience in the building sector,  lack of attention to detail seems to be an almost consistent aspect of UK production and process....

A random list off the top of my head. From banana-shaped walls, to CSL delivered in similar shape, a BCO who arrives on site, spends all his time talking about German race tracks - and then promptly disappears. Oh and I nearly forgot the ecology... the missed email causing a four month delay to the build start.... builders who don't listen to repeated and clear instructions, producers who don't give clear guidance.

 

Lack of high quality and finish is turning me into a nag. Unless poor quality is pointed out often enough and loud enough, high quality won't happen. And I thought I was dealing with mature grown-ups who could give a monkey's. 

As a family we're investing close to £250,000 into the local economy. Many just take us as an easy target. Because, I suppose the boom will bust soon, and the sector won't - for entirely spurious reasons - regulate itself because quality doesn't sell, I seem to remember. (Woodrow, Bovis, Persimon, Charles Church, NHBC) 

 

So, @Triassic, quality sells to some. Not all.

[jamiehamy]

Mine were made in Norway and Lithuania according to the stickers. Faulty lacquer,  wrong colour,  wrong spacer bars,  warped frame,  burst spacer bars and incorrectly fixed glass. 

 

Don't for a minute think it's just a UK thing... 

[jack]

8 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

.... builders who don't listen to repeated and clear instructions, producers who don't give clear guidance.

 

Lack of high quality and finish is turning me into a nag. Unless poor quality is pointed out often enough and loud enough, high quality won't happen. And I thought I was dealing with mature grown-ups who could give a monkey's. 

 

I hear you.

 

I used to think it was because they were all in a hurry to get onto the next job, but I've since concluded that many simply aren't capable of high-quality work even if they're interested in delivering it. We had some poor work from one supplier, despite saying we wanted (and them agreeing to provide) a "perfect" finish. This was on a day rate, so there should have been no rush, but what was delivered still sucked.  

 

 

[ToughButterCup]

7 minutes ago, jamiehamy said:

[...]

Don't for a minute think it's just a UK thing... 

 

No, @jamiehamy, I don't.

Maybe it's that I am so out of touch now (no irony or self-deprecation intended). I remember distinctly during my professional life being held to (and wanting to be held to) high professional standards. Professional review was normal, valued, expected. I remember the pride in a job well done, the almost secret pleasure in meeting a successful ex student and listening to her success story, and somewhat later the searing disappointment when our most senior managers were publicly exposed as - well, 'donkeys'.

And for me that points up the importance of personal professionalism. Holding yourself to high standards, no matter what (almost) is happening around you.

The litany of probably unforced errors pointed out by @Triassic above all had roots in somebody's decision to do nothing about very minor things. Easy to correct things. 

Had they cared, the profit from @Triassic's order would have paid the average worker's rent or  mortgage for a month or two. So why wouldn't they care?

[ToughButterCup]

20 minutes ago, jack said:

I hear you.

[...].

This was on a day rate, so there should have been no rush, but what was delivered still sucked.  

 

I'm beginning to think Day Rate is meaningless. Right? or Wrong?

[gravelld]

28 minutes ago, jack said:

I used to think it was because they were all in a hurry to get onto the next job, but I've since concluded that many simply aren't capable of high-quality work even if they're interested in delivering it. We had some poor work from one supplier, despite saying we wanted (and them agreeing to provide) a "perfect" finish. This was on a day rate, so there should have been no rush, but what was delivered still sucked.  

 

Interesting. I haven't started yet but it sounds like my opening thoughts are similar to what yours were - in services industries, reducing the amount of time is paramount, so invert that by paying for their time, not fixed price.

 

Maybe that won't work after all...

[jack]

8 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

I'm beginning to think Day Rate is meaningless. Right? or Wrong?

 

In my admittedly limited experience, yes.

 

The same guy did both fixed price and day rate work. I can't see that the quality of the work, or speed of the workers, changed between the two.

 

When I queried quality on fixed price work, I was told he didn't have the margins on fixed price work to meet my "unrealistic" expectations of quality. 

When I queried quality on day rate stuff, I was told he didn't have the margins on day rate work to meet my "unrealistic" expectations of quality.

 

Again, I told him I was expecting very high quality and was willing to pay a reasonable price for it, so this shouldn't have been news to him.

 

I think (but don't know) that he grossly and accidentally under-priced the first job he did for us. He took the hit on that, although if he'd discussed it with us we'd have been happy to pay more to get the right job done. If I'm right about that, then it coloured every further interaction with him, including the one where he walked off while I was in mid-sentence, explaining that the piece of protective steel I'd found on the floor was supposed to be protecting a 240V eternal blind cable in the wall. One of his guys had just removed it and tossed it when it interfered with him fitting plasterboard quickly. I had to go and find him elsewhere on site a few mins later to sort things out, as there was no way he was coming to me. Ridiculous.

 

In any event, things may get interesting when I have time to dig into the cracked tiles in the bathroom. His tiler fitted the boards and the tiles, and they're all falling apart. It's annoying, because I really like the tiler, but there's presently probably a grand's worth of damage that I don't think I should be paying to put right.

[jack]

3 minutes ago, gravelld said:

Interesting. I haven't started yet but it sounds like my opening thoughts are similar to what yours were - in services industries, reducing the amount of time is paramount, so invert that by paying for their time, not fixed price.

 

Maybe that won't work after all...

 

I suspect it will work perfectly with the right tradespeople, but then, they'd probably do a good job on a fixed rate too!

[ToughButterCup]

Hmm, I'm left thinking that my dad's approach to poor workmanship is the only one that works (he was a bridging engineer for the M50 and M5 to Bromsgrove).

 

"Rip it out, do it again or don't get paid"

I used to tremble in my boots when I heard him in that mode.

[Ferdinand]

2 hours ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

I'm beginning to think Day Rate is meaningless. Right? or Wrong?

 

I think it depends on you and your workers both treating each other fairly. Either side can poleaxe the arrangement.

F

[jack]

I'm far too soft for that. 

[PeterW]

5 hours ago, jack said:

 

I suspect it will work perfectly with the right tradespeople, but then, they'd probably do a good job on a fixed rate too!

 

Roofers have turned round today and said they are on for another 3-4 days next week... and it's a priced job with a few extras so they make nothing more.

 

The reason ..? Because they want it to look right..!! If they manage that then I will be happy to chuck an extra couple of hundred their way as so far they have been pretty good ..!

 

You have to pick and choose carefully - my joiner who is day rate does 8-6 some days (today it was nearly 7 as we wanted to finish a floor ....) but my labourer barely makes 8:30-4 with an hour or so of breaks ... guess who's getting all the work ..??