How to support a (block and beam) beam at one end

[Thorfun]

I need to figure out how to widen my hallway to fill in a bit of void down to the basement where the red lines are shown below. 

 

 

so the hallway need to come out by about 120mm. I discussed this with a friend and he suggested getting another beam to sit alongside the existing one (pretty much where the red lines are) which I thought was a good idea although I'd still need to fill in the gap between the steel and the new beam. one end of the beam could sit in an existing steel in this area circled red:

 

 

which you can see if I look down the existing beam

 

 

but the other end doesn't have any where to sit or be supported:

 

 

my friend suggested a steel 'hanger' of some kind bolted/fitted to the existing beam but I didn't find anything like that on a Google search so guess it'd have to be bespoke?

 

I will need to build a wall going down to the basement floor to stop sound coming up the stairs as shown below:

 

 

so that could also help to support the beam as it goes in to the steel but that wall would only go to about here

 

 

 

and half the beam would be unsupported.

 

so, after all those pictures finally some questions:

 

1. how would be best to support the other end of the beam?

2. can anyone think of a better solution?

 

 

[Canski]

I’m sure I have seen some sort of shoe in the past that hangs down off a beam. Have you spoken to the beam manufacturers ? If not I’m sure one could be made. Or … timber?

[Temp]

It's only 120mm. Im thinking fill in the web on the steel and concrete with timber. Then bolt several joists together to make up 120mm and fix to the infill.

 

Might need some steel straps wrapped around and fixed to the blocks to  keep everything tight up against the beams.

 

At the unsupported end it might be possible to push the tails of a long tailed joist hanger under what's there and fold it down and fix to the other side of the wall. Or fix a wall plate to the wall across the stairs and fix to that.

 

 

 

.

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Canski said:

I’m sure I have seen some sort of shoe in the past that hangs down off a beam. Have you spoken to the beam manufacturers ? If not I’m sure one could be made. 

not spoken to the beam manufacturers. it's worth a shout, thanks.

 

1 hour ago, Canski said:

Or … timber?

 

57 minutes ago, Temp said:

It's only 120mm. Im thinking fill in the web on the steel and concrete with timber. Then bolt several joists together to make up 120mm and fix to the infill.

 

Might need some steel straps wrapped around and fixed to the blocks to  keep everything tight up against the beams.

 

At the unsupported end it might be possible to push the tails of a long tailed joist hanger under what's there and fold it down and fix to the other side of the wall. Or fix a wall plate to the wall across the stairs and fix to that.

 

 

 

.

interesting, hadn't really thought about using timber as there'll be screed going on top and figured a concrete beam would be stronger to take that weight than timber. 

 

I could build that wall in the basement in timber as well and make the verticals double/triple thick to take most of the weight of the timber joists as well. interesting and worth thinking about. I'll investigate joist hangers or wall plates.

 

thanks for the tips.

 

[Thorfun]

so, an apology is required from me for this for being a d**k! I got a laser out and lined it up with where I needed to bring the hallway in to and it appears I've already done the work on the end where the beam is and simply forgot about it! for some reason I still thought I had to bring that in a bit. I remember doing it now. I removed the blocks and moved the beam to the right (which is why it's overhanging the wall below slightly) and then infilled with new blocks. all done well over a year ago so I could be forgiven for forgetting as so much else has happened since.

 

anyway, so I'm now down to having to build out from the steel to line up with the beam. what do you think? shot fire timber through the steel and build out with timber from there with it also sitting in the horizontal steel? then I'll build a timber wall below it to fill the gap from below and the staircase will eventually be made wider to fully fit the stairwell.

[Dave Jones]

stud/timber.

[Thorfun]

5 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

stud/timber.

yeah. that's what i've done before for fixing to steels. shot fired timber through the steel and then build out from that timber with more timber. figured i could do the same here now.

[Canski]

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

yeah. that's what i've done before for fixing to steels. shot fired timber through the steel and then build out from that timber with more timber. figured i could do the same here now.

I'd drill and bolt if you can or tek screw. We used to shot fire to steels but not anymore due to the nails corroding and breaking off. Pity really because it was fast and made the site managers jump out of their skin if they were hovering around us.

[ProDave]

Are you not building some form of wall to fill the gap between the stair and the edge of the opening?  If so the wall you build would support the extra beam?

[Thorfun]

9 minutes ago, Canski said:

I'd drill and bolt if you can or tek screw. We used to shot fire to steels but not anymore due to the nails corroding and breaking off. Pity really because it was fast and made the site managers jump out of their skin if they were hovering around us.

corroding even internally?

[Thorfun]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

Are you not building some form of wall to fill the gap between the stair and the edge of the opening?  If so the wall you build would support the extra beam?

yes but the stairs are temporary and the final stairs will be wider to fill the gap. the wall below in the basement will be built up to be level with the existing beam so it ends up being vertical all along. so the new wall will support some of the beam. as such, I'm now not worried at all. 🙂 I just need to build the wall, fill in between the steel and the wall and then shutter it for when the screed goes down so that doesn't pour down the stairwell!

 

(I hope that makes sense)

[saveasteading]

49 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

58 minutes ago, Canski said:

I'd drill and bolt if you can or tek screw. We used to shot fire to steels but not anymore due to the nails corroding and breaking off. Pity really because it was fast and made the site managers jump out of their skin if they were hovering around us.

Expand  

corroding even internally?

No. Even if they get damp from the basement, the timber would fail first. Plus most teks are plated. If worried get external quality. There are trillions of them on steel roofs and the decent ones don't corrode.

My career is mostly based on steel buildings yet I favour timber here. It cuts and planes and joins,  and is easy to get . 

Long Teks to steel but also link to the new wall and fix anywhere that presents itself for extra stiffness with hangers off the t beams perhaps.

Firstly tek a plank that fits into the web and fills to just outside the steel. Then fix a joist to your liking.

This is barely structural but you would not want it to deflect. You don't need to ask the beam people.

Once built, stand on it and jump up and down. Tested and approved.

 

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

No. Even if they get damp from the basement, the timber would fail first. Plus most teks are plated. If worried get external quality. There are trillions of them on steel roofs and the decent ones don't corrode.

My career is mostly based on steel buildings yet I favour timber here. It cuts and planes and joins,  and is easy to get . 

Long Teks to steel but also link to the new wall and fix anywhere that presents itself for extra stiffness with hangers off the t beams perhaps.

Firstly tek a plank that fits into the web and fills to just outside the steel. Then fix a joist to your liking.

This is barely structural but you would not want it to deflect. You don't need to ask the beam people.

Once built, stand on it and jump up and down. Tested and approved.

 

my corrosion question was about shot fired nails.

 

I'm a bit confused by the Tek screws though. I presume you guys means something like these? if so, I know they say self-drilling but surely there's no way that is going through a structural steel without drilling a hole first? even though it says no drilling first required? 

 

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

Once built, stand on it and jump up and down. Tested and approved.

now that's my kind of testing.

[saveasteading]

40 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

they say self-drilling

Thats what they are. Sometimes it won't get through but the second one will.

Just make sure they are called 'heavies' or clearly states it is for hot-rolled steel  like yours. Others are made to go through cladding and purlins so won't make it.

Check the length of thread so that it catches the steel. 

They work best if there is minimal  thread through the timber, but these 2 wings cut a wide hole through the timber then break off at the steel.

All that for 9p each.  Yours will be more as longer.

A hex head works better than screwdriver head.

 

[Thorfun]

25 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Thats what they are. Sometimes it won't get through but the second one will.

Just make sure they are called 'heavies' or clearly states it is for hot-rolled steel  like yours. Others are made to go through cladding and purlins so won't make it.

Check the length of thread so that it catches the steel. 

They work best if there is minimal  thread through the timber, but these 2 wings cut a wide hole through the timber then break off at the steel.

All that for 9p each.  Yours will be more as longer.

A hex head works better than screwdriver head.

 

I'll give them a go! thanks. if it all fails miserably then I'll borrow the Spitfire off my mate and revert to explosives to get the job done. 😉 

[Thorfun]

On 15/03/2023 at 18:58, saveasteading said:

Thats what they are. Sometimes it won't get through but the second one will.

Just make sure they are called 'heavies' or clearly states it is for hot-rolled steel  like yours. Others are made to go through cladding and purlins so won't make it.

Check the length of thread so that it catches the steel. 

They work best if there is minimal  thread through the timber, but these 2 wings cut a wide hole through the timber then break off at the steel.

All that for 9p each.  Yours will be more as longer.

A hex head works better than screwdriver head.

 

tek screws have arrived. what sort of drill do i use for these? i have standard drill with screwdriver, impact driver and SDS drill with a slip clutch.

[Canski]

I’d go with the sds. No hammer

 

[Thorfun]

4 minutes ago, Canski said:

I’d go with the sds. No hammer

 

will need to buy an SDS screw bit holder then

[Canski]

Or a chuck adaptor. I find they often come in handy. 

[saveasteading]

33 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

what sort of drill

Any normal hand drill will do it. Having variable speeds will help find the optimum.

It is entirely rotary so sds is wrong and the machine unnecessarily heavy.

Goggles.

 

What head type?

[Thorfun]

2 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Any normal hand drill will do it. Having variable speeds will help find the optimum.

It is entirely rotary so sds is wrong and the machine unnecessarily heavy.

Goggles.

 

What head type?

PH3. googles will be used, and face-mask, and gloves. 🙂

[saveasteading]

OK. If by chance the ph3 clicks in to the head and stays there, no problem.

 

More likely you are going to have to support it until it starts to cut.

Steel workers have very hard skin from holding the thread while it turns. You might need to find another way....something to hold the screw ( a ring spanner?), or a dab of glue on the head.

Or you could make a pilot hole or indent to engage the point.

[Thorfun]

13 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

OK. If by chance the ph3 clicks in to the head and stays there, no problem.

 

More likely you are going to have to support it until it starts to cut.

Steel workers have very hard skin from holding the thread while it turns. You might need to find another way....something to hold the screw ( a ring spanner?), or a dab of glue on the head.

Or you could make a pilot hole or indent to engage the point.

in my mind the piece of wood would hold the screw in place, no? i could clamp the wood to the steel and then screw through the wood and then the screw won't move as it drills through the steel. would that not do the job?

[Conor]

We had exactly the same scenario. I fixed a 6x2" to the side of the slab using 180mm concrete screws, then fixed another on top with just woodscrews. A bit of ply on the face to act as shuttering for the screed. No issues and job done in an hour. The plasterboard fitted to the edge and then shoe rail for the ballustrading. 

[Pocster]

@Thorfun

Just get a mag drill ( did some yesterday ) . Drill your holes in steel . Coach bolt timber to it - rock mofo solid .

 

ah see you’ve gone with sds and tek screws . Be keen too see how you get on 

Edited March 21, 2023 by pocster