Parts of the build that can be done yourself with min training/max savings

[miike]

Following a conversation with a builder about roofing, I found that for my flat roof house I could get qualified on a one day course to install an EPDM membrane myself (which would give me a 20 year warranty on any roof I installed it on). There are then additional introductory roofing courses of ~2 days to cover the basics of roofing. I would then be paying £10k for materials to install myself vs £30k+ for a roofing company. The roof is a pretty simple design and comes with an initial plywood layer from the TF company, so would need a vapour barrier, rigid insulation, plywood, membrane to be installed. 

I'm still doing some research into what exactly would be involved, but this seems to be an opportunity for a big saving compared to the effort of learning the trade. 

 

This brings me onto the question of what other elements of the build offer the biggest opportunities for savings relative to the time needed to learn how to do it? 

 

From my initial thoughts, I'm thinking flooring and painting.   

 

 

[saveasteading]

5 minutes ago, miike said:

I could get qualified on a one day course

You will learn a lot and get a certificate. Whether that makes you a skilled roofer is another matter.

Not saying don't do it, but allow for learning more before and on the job.

 

I assume you have some building skills already.

Don't assume that you are saving £20k. 

 

Other jobs you can learn and do? Depends so much on your abilities, head for heights, stamina, boredom threshold, strength and endurance, coordination.

 

I would say you cannot learn enough about bricklaying, heating, electrics so don't consider them.

Yes painting and flooring. Allow for some errors. the university of Youtube will help.

Groundworks, foundations, drainage? Some find it easy enough and some never will. 

Timber structure No, but inner studs and insulation etc maybe.

 

Do though study every subject and do quality control, as the trades might not care as much as you do.

[miike]

26 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

You will learn a lot and get a certificate. Whether that makes you a skilled roofer is another matter.

Not saying don't do it, but allow for learning more before and on the job.

 

I assume you have some building skills already.

Don't assume that you are saving £20k. 

 

Other jobs you can learn and do? Depends so much on your abilities, head for heights, stamina, boredom threshold, strength and endurance, coordination.

 

I would say you cannot learn enough about bricklaying, heating, electrics so don't consider them.

Yes painting and flooring. Allow for some errors. the university of Youtube will help.

Groundworks, foundations, drainage? Some find it easy enough and some never will. 

Timber structure No, but inner studs and insulation etc maybe.

 

Do though study every subject and do quality control, as the trades might not care as much as you do.

 

I assumed there would be a lot to learn but these EPDM training videos do make it look quite simple - https://www.rubber4roofs.co.uk/how-to-install-a-classicbond-one-piece-epdm-rubber-roof

I have builders taking it to the watertight stage, it's at this point the remaining work can either be subcontracted out or done myself. Electrics/plumbing I wouldn't even consider trying. But laying the UFH pipes, screed, landscaping etc. these are things that don't necessary seem out of reach to potentially learn.  

[Dave Jones]

edpm is not hard to do but there is a skill to do it so it looks good (no creases, wrinkles, pigs ear corners done properly etc).

 

Unless you want to use the roof as a balcony dont bother with a top deck and use glass fibre faced insulation which you can bond directly onto (it will take foot traffic to install). Also rubber is bloody heavy and you will need another pair of hands.

 

An alternative edpm solution that is much easier to install on your own is resitrix. It comes in rolls and goes down exactly the same way but is easier to handle and depending on the roof size/shape you get much less waste.

 

The main moneysaving job we all can do as long as you can do math and are reasonably fit is is the groundworks/drainage/footings. A man in a digger is peanuts to hire and he will have a laser. He also probably has a couple mates who would come for the day to help concrete.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Dave Jones

[SteamyTea]

I would consider the electrical side, but the kit you have to buy/rent to test it is expensive.

I did a limited scope Part P course a decade or so ago, cost me £600, and that was subsidised, so not a cheap course.  I did not find it difficult (though grew up with an electrical engineer as a Father, and had dabbled for 30 years with wires).

Many colleges have skill courses that are reasonably priced, depends on the skill shortage in your area.

 

You may find that getting to grips with the Building Regulations can save you money. Maybe a basic understanding of surveying could stop very expensive blunders, and a good understanding of construction drawings.

[Mattg4321]

Not forgetting that you’ll also need to ‘notify’ building control to comply with part p, re the electrical work. This can be costly if you’re doing it yourself. A registered company can notify it themselves. A diyer will have to get a 3rd party/the council in to inspect at various stages. 

[saveasteading]

Roofing. I was taken with the kind that is painted on to a fg scrim, and becomes a 2mm, totally flexible surface without any joints. It comes in tins and is brushed on. Looked ideal for DIY and esp on flat roofs.

But it doesn't appear to have been widely adopted. Whether it is flawed or has been squeezed out by the competition I don't know.

 

Basic Electrics is easy enough, and few sparkies seem to really understand the more complex aspects anyway. But you do need an expert overview and sign-off.

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Roofing. I was taken with the kind that is painted on to a fg scrim, and becomes a 2mm, totally flexible surface without any joints. It comes in tins and is brushed on. Looked ideal for DIY and esp on flat roofs.

We had our roof at work repaired with something similar.  I wish I had been there when the guy was doing it.

Looks like he did a fine job.

But it has not rained since.  A good fall of snow is what is needed, then the thaw.

But this is Cornwall, so like High Wycombe, just drizzle, with the occasional storm.

[Gone West]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

Roofing. I was taken with the kind that is painted on to a fg scrim, and becomes a 2mm, totally flexible surface without any joints.

Is Everbuild Aquaseal the type of stuff you're talking about? I was looking at that the other day.

 

https://www.sealantsandtoolsdirect.co.uk/everbuild-aquaseal-liquid-roof-membrane-coating-21kg-grey-aqliqrfgy21

 

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

Basic Electrics is easy enough

 

A friend of my son in law is an electrician and said he would help. I drew up the circuit design myself and had it checked by him. I then carried out the first fix and had that checked and tested. When I had finished the second fix he carried out the tests and issued the Part P certificate. 

 

[SteamyTea]

8 minutes ago, Gone West said:

Is Everbuild Aquaseal the type of stuff you're talking about?

Think it is.  There are a number of similar 'systems'.

I think most are polyurethanes.

 

I really should get a small tub and play with it, see what else it can do.

Edited March 7, 2023 by SteamyTea

[Pocster]

16 hours ago, saveasteading said:

 

 

I would say you cannot learn enough about bricklaying, heating, electrics so don't consider them.

You can block lay and then get it rendered to “ hide “ quality work .

What the eye doesn’t see the heart doesn’t know .

[Alan Ambrose]

I think that anyone should be able to do the materials buying if you're a bit thorough. You can save bundles there if you're careful.

 

Then maybe it's a judgement about what you feel confident doing / what day rate you're saving / what you can stomach doing.

 

For me that would be chippy and installation (internal studs, roofing, cladding, plasterboard, PV) - tasks that are not too long or too skilled. Electrics and plumbing (and arrange to get the electrics tested and signed off). I probably couldn't be bothered with tiling or painting although I could do it. Plastering, bricklaying, screed I view as a bit skilled. But then my dad was the kind of guy who could do anything and we kids just assumed that was the way the world worked. 

 

Quite a lot of electrics, for instance, is pulling cables, installing sockets etc - some guys are billing £1K a day for that. Similarly plumbing, installing UFH etc. I would have to stop myself being too 'self-build', doing everything and exhausting myself. 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

I was just wondering what sort of certification you need to put windows into a new build.

https://fensahelp.zendesk.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360059195914-If-you-haven-t-got-any-work-to-assess

 

@craig, any idea?

 

You can save a bit of cash by putting in a vented DHW system.

They come in for some stick on here, but then a lot of people are from the 'combi boiler' generation, i.e. under 55.

 

I agree with this 

1 hour ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Quite a lot of electrics, for instance, is pulling cables, installing sockets etc

Though some knowledge is needed i.e. installation/reference methods.

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by SteamyTea

[craig]

2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

 

I was just wondering what sort of certification you need to put windows into a new build.

@craig, any idea?

 

 

Honestly? None but knowledge and experience essential tbh. You need a CSCS card.

 

However, every supplier recommends fully trained/certified product installers to install their product.

 

It’s not rocket science but it’s not an easy job, can be physically demanding, with long hours, long distance travelling, constant B&B/hotel and lots of time away from family.

 

I would say that knowledge of the buildings, materials used, equipment (which all require training and certification on) is required.

[saveasteading]

On 07/03/2023 at 01:13, saveasteading said:

Some find it easy enough and some never will. 

Should have added. 

Our groundworker found it easy but hadn't a clue. Testing for this before engaging a contractor is tricky. References aren't necessarily guarantees either...they were nice and the building hasn't fallen down or cracked  (yet).

[saveasteading]

13 hours ago, craig said:

You need a CSCS card

?. On self build?

 

I have put in and repaired a few when fitters were not available.

They all had separate glass which aids weight handling but is another issue re fit.

That was when I found out that aluminium doors absolutely depend on the glass for strength.

 

I take 4 times as long as the pros.

Bear in mind that measuring isn't as easy as you might think, and it is your problem if you DIY.

Lesser window fitters add lots of tolerance and mastic. Good ones get it just right.

[SteamyTea]

7 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

13 hours ago, craig said:

You need a CSCS card

?. On self build?

Interesting point.

Probably worth getting one anyway, they were giving them away here a while back, at Wickes.

Need to renew mine I think.

[craig]

9 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

?. On self build?

 

There is actually no legal requirement for them on any site 😉

[TerryE]

• Electrics 2nd fit, Gas, UVC must be done by a certified professional.
• Some trades require a lot of skill / learning curve so it just isn't worth trying to do then yourself unless you are "in the trade": plastering, slating, bricklaying, precision concrete work, etc.

In our case we use a local builder to do our groundworks: we had to drop the entire site by ~ 0.6m to get the headrooms we wanted and maintain ridgelines; that was a lot of 40 tonners of subsoil to dump. (Luckily a farmer in the village was culverting a stream that ran alongside his yard and happily took it all.)  He also did the drainage, stone skin and other outside work.  We use MBC for the TF, warmSlab, insulation and air tightness.  We used some of our builder's preferred tradesman subbies: electrician, tiler, slater, plastering.  MBC's structural engineer did all of the structural calcs and worksheets.  Internorm did our fenestration. We pretty much did the rest ourselves:

• Overall architectural concept, but an architect technician (AT) did all of the initial AutoCAD drawing for Planning Applications; these were passed to MBC's TA for the basis of the build drawing sets.
• Overall project managed, planning submissions, procurement.  I was recently retired and had done some (IT) PM professionally, so we were comfortable taking these on.
• Thermal specification and design; heating implementation (less 240V electrics), home automation. 
• All joinery / woodworking including fitting a custom staircase spanning 3 stories.  Used to be an occasional hobby, and I was a lot more comfortable with my standard quality of work than that of my builder's preferred chippie.  Fitting kitchen and all sanitaryware.
• All plumbing, and MVHR, both design and implementation. Also external rainwater and weather proofing.
• Decorating (though used / paid a nephew who does this professionally for a lot of this). 
• Jan used to run a custom-made curtains business, so she did all of our window hangings.

(i) This saved a shed load of money -- maybe 40% of what the build would have cost us if we had subbed out these.  (ii) We had far better over design and implementation cohesion and quality because we could consider the issues end-to-end and were motivated to achieve a standard that we wanted to live in.

 

However you need to be realistic:

• What are your own skills / aptitude experience?  For example Project Managers and Architects charge a lot because the work is skilled and time consuming. Doing these functions yourself can save maybe 20% of the total build costs, but you have to be totally honest about your own skill levels here because you doing them badly could end up costing you a lot more.
• BRegs impose certain requirement v.v. certification and those are primarily triggered by safety / risk issues. e.g you cannot do electrical installation because the Regs mandate that it is inspected and certified by a registered qualified electrician.  So even though I have rewired my previous house to the then Regs, it was a lot easier to subcontract this all out to a known and competent sparky.  However some here have done the first fit themselves and used an electrician for second-fit and certification.
• We used an approved private BInsp rather than the LEA inspector, slightly more expensive but better overall because the Inspector was more customer focused, whilst still enforcing the regulations, but we found we could discuss issues with him and he occasionally made excellent suggestion of an implementation approach that would still comply with the regs.  For example,  I still had to submit and self certify all the required design and test documentation for things my MVHR, foul and potable water (including why my system was exempt from relevant the Part G HW safety thresholds.)
• I did the SAP-as-designed calcs myself.  This was a mistake in retrospect, because the as-build calcs must be registered by a certified practitioner. All of our local SAP firms would only quote for a job lot and weren't interested because I'd done the as-designed myself.  Luckily I found a company that was more flexible and were willing to do the as-built submission, but TBH, it probably cost just as much in the end.
• Time is money for other trades, so you holding the work up is going to lose goodwill and prove costly.  We always made sure to have any prep work that we were responsible for completed before it was required.  We were helped because our TF + fenestration was erected and weather proof  in under a couple of weeks.  After that we were largely responsible for all internals at our pace and the builder could get on with the externals. This made the interfaces straightforward and stress-free.

Edited March 8, 2023 by TerryE

[saveasteading]

6 hours ago, TerryE said:

I was recently retired and had done some (IT) PM professionally, so we were comfortable taking these on.

That makes a huge difference. Giving up paid work to manage a self-build is a big deal. The rewards can be great though, on many levels.

[saveasteading]

13 hours ago, craig said:

13 hours ago, saveasteading said:

?. On self build?

 

There is actually no legal requirement for them on any site

I knew that, but was underplaying. I'd be interested to know where you got that idea @craig

[Sparrowhawk]

On 07/03/2023 at 20:09, craig said:

Honestly? None but knowledge and experience essential tbh. You need a CSCS card.

 

However, every supplier recommends fully trained/certified product installers to install their product.

What about replacement windows, where the next buyer's solicitor is going to make a noise about missing FENSA certifications if I put them in with help?

 

I'm having a job finding any installers who understand fitting. They get screwing through the frame and foaming and that's it. And treat me like a neurotic when I ask if they've done more on any installs.

[craig]

9 minutes ago, Sparrowhawk said:

What about replacement windows, where the next buyer's solicitor is going to make a noise about missing FENSA certifications if I put them in with help?

 

I'm having a job finding any installers who understand fitting. They get screwing through the frame and foaming and that's it. And treat me like a neurotic when I ask if they've done more on any installs.

There isn’t any legal means to use FENSA or CERTASS all they are, are self certification to building control. That they have been installed by someone “that knows what they are doing”.

 

You can request building control to check yourself, you don’t even need to do that and it’ll cost about £150/£200 at point of selling.

[Dave Jones]

14 minutes ago, Sparrowhawk said:

What about replacement windows, where the next buyer's solicitor is going to make a noise about missing FENSA certifications if I put them in with help?

 

I'm having a job finding any installers who understand fitting. They get screwing through the frame and foaming and that's it. And treat me like a neurotic when I ask if they've done more on any installs.

 

they understand it all right, they smash them out as fast as possible and couldn't care less how its done as long as its quick. This normally means butchering the frame by drilling straight thought it, copious poor U value silicone and trim. No care about air tightness, sitting the frame correctly in the insulation zone, using straps and pulling out packers to avoid cold bridging etc

 

 

[Dave Jones]

On 07/03/2023 at 20:09, craig said:

Honestly? None but knowledge and experience essential tbh. You need a CSCS card.

 

 

 

hahaha.

 

you only need a CSCS if you planning on going to work for taylor wimpey doing sitework. utterly pointless for a diy'r